SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to What Would Amber Do with your host, Amber Howard. Each week, Amber dances in conversation with inspirational leaders out to make a difference for what matters most to people. She brings you incredible guests who share their real life experiences of being a leader and what it looks like to live a truly created life of service to others. And now, here is your host.

SPEAKER_01 0:25

Welcome back to What Would Amber Do. It is my privilege this morning to have on the show Kirk Fox. Kirk is a certified executive coach and leadership facilitator. Kirk's company, Develop Up Inc., offers executive coaching to senior executive leaders and their teams at all levels of organizations. Kirk believes that compassion and caring are synonymous with business strategy and performance improvement, that emotional intelligence solves more complex human challenges than IQ, and that our connections and service to each other, our community and all beings contribute to a life fulfilled. Kirk, it's so great to have this time with you this morning.

SPEAKER_02 1:11

Thank you, Amber. Great to be here with you too.

SPEAKER_01 1:14

Yeah. So you and I met. We both worked for a training company. Um we kind of didn't really know each other that well, but got connected at some point. And I'm I'm grateful for the have the opportunity to kind of connect with you newly now. And you're doing some really amazing work in the world. So just thank you for that. And tell me a little bit, because I don't know a lot about your journey to kind of getting to where you are today. So I would love to hear a little bit about like what's it been like for you and and how did you get to the point where you created Develop Up Inc. and anything you want to share about your journey.

SPEAKER_02 1:47

All right, awesome. Boy, how do I how do I make that concise? I first want to thank you for for connecting us like this again, because you're right, our paths did cross a number of years ago, and you were one of those people where you just had a feeling that we were going to keep intersecting, and and we have. And so I think that's really cool. Um so, you know, my journey, I I my background really is in the corporate learning and development and uh started a long, long time ago, pretty much right out of university. Uh, so I'll try to make that part brief. But I had this dilemma: do I go into education and be a teacher, or do I go into psychology? Because psychology fascinated me. And so I decided the psychology route. But after, you know, an undergrad, I kind of went, oh, I don't know if I want to go back to school for the rest of psychology. Um, and my first full-time role as an adult was in a training position. Um, and so it kind of circled right back to the education piece that I wanted, but now within the business world versus um, you know, uh schooling. And so, you know, right from that time, which I won't tell you how long ago that is, um, I just kept taking different training roles throughout my career. And um, you know, that led me right up until about 10 years ago. Well, more like 12 now, I guess, time flies. And um I decided that I, you know, I was director of learning for a large uh national company here in Canada. And um I was one of the things I was responsible for was the performance management process, you know, the mid-year review, the year-end review. And I was just really discouraged by what I was seeing because, you know, we had a great system. I tried to put a process in place. It would get people talking to each other and setting goals for themselves and challenging themselves, and it just wasn't flying. Um, people felt it was a necessary evil. Let's get together, check the boxes, say we're done, and we can move on and get back to our work, and hope that our score aligns with a bonus or whatever it is. And that's just what it seemed to be. And, you know, I started reading about coaching at the time and and and this, you know, different way of communicating with your teams, and and I really loved it. And I think the first book, I think I still have the first book somewhere over here, um, Coactive Coaching, uh, that really catalytic coaching, pardon me, there it is, that I started reading this book and thought, I want to bring this to my workplace. And so um I decided to get my own certification as a coach at the time and partnered with an executive coach. And we brought a training program into my organization to train all of our people leaders on how to coach their teams. And so my vision was to replace this antiquated performance management debate, really, is what it became, you know, why aren't I a four? And you say I'm a three, and you know, into something that was productive, that people looked forward to, that people found worthwhile. And so we did. We trained about a hundred leaders, it was a medium-sized organization, and uh, into use these coaching skills. And through that process, um, I left that organization, continued, uh, went out on my own, started my own company, uh, develop, and uh continued to work with them sort of as a more consulting uh basis, if you will. So that was sort of my journey from you know learning into coaching. And now I would say uh it's really um the best of both worlds. I do a lot of leadership facilitation training, I do executive coaching, and I still teach coaching skills.

SPEAKER_01 5:26

I love it. Yeah, there are a lot of things that and and I think they're well-meaning, you know. I mean, we've I've worked in corporations, you know, I've I've participated, you know, I've participated in employee engagement programs, and you know, there are lots of things that I think companies do because they they it's well-meaning. The their the intention is really to make a difference with people. And uh, but I I I really love what you're saying here. I think the approach really matters, and and I do, I can definitely see um even the whole, I remember working in companies and it was like up until November, like everyone's working towards something, and then all of a sudden it was like it would get towards the end of the year, and it was like a switch flip. And it went from being like, oh, we've got these company objectives or goals, and we're trying to achieve them in projects, and and then all of a sudden it's like, oh, we've got to get the goals met. Right. And and and it was never said, but the the the focus of the work, and and and then all of a sudden it went from being about what this corporation is up to as a whole, how we can work together to fulfill on something, to being, oh, we're all here just to kind of service the leadership team. And I'm looking forward to kind of talking to with you about kind of leadership as defined by titles, but you know, in a few moments. But I I do that that model, that that older, you know, traditional model of performance management, I I don't know that it necessarily, I mean, not saying it didn't accomplish anything, but I don't think it kind of created fulfilled on the intention of why even have a performance management program in the first place.

SPEAKER_02 7:11

You know what? That's exactly it. You know, I think it is all with good intention, right? When you think, I mean, when I was managing it, uh, I really believed in it. You know, I I but I believed in how we wanted it to be, not how it ended up being. You know, and the way you sort of framed it, I couldn't agree more that it became this rush at the end of the year or at the mid-year point when we have to have these conversations to go, oh my gosh, have I updated my goals? Where am I on my goals? And it was all about this goal that probably wasn't even current, that we probably haven't even talked about, you know, between manager and employee up until this point. And and so the whole coaching shifted that for me because now it meant let's have ongoing conversations, let there be no surprises, you know, at these mid-year and year end points because we've continued to talk. And I have to tell you, the biggest um I think reward for me in this process early on was when I started to hear from, you know, employees and managers saying, you know what, we're having quality conversations for the first time ever. I'm actually getting to know who this person is and what they want out of their life and who they want to be when they grow up, you know, so to speak. Um and we'd never talked about that before. And so those were the things that really kept motivating me in that direction uh around coaching.

SPEAKER_01 8:31

I love that because you know, as a coach myself, I I think it really does. There is something, and you know, you talk a lot about coaching culture, and and I I'd love to hear your thoughts on it, but there is something about the relationship that gets created inside between a coach and and their coachie or whoever they're working with that is um, you know, if done right, and I, you know, we could talk about this a little bit too. I mean, there's like there it seems like there's a coach on every corner these days and and different approaches to coaching. And but like to me, it was always a and I still say this to people when they hire me as a coach, it's like I I take it, it's sacred because typically people are getting coaching on the things like you know, there's they've they've got success in some areas of their life. They're reaching for a coach for the areas of life where they're stuck or they're not able to get traction themselves. And so to me, you're you're working with someone through resolving some of the things that are really important to them and that they haven't been moving. And and I think there's something very beautiful about the relationship that gets created. And so I really like you know, how great that you know, that you're someone who is in that inquiry always, right? Like what's missing here? You know, like let's not just have performance management be about checking these boxes, but really about something that's gonna make a difference, and then you know, discovering coaching for yourself and then bringing that to the organization, I think. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:01

And and I think it's important to distinguish, you know, you and I right now we're talking about two um, I don't want to say different kinds of coaching, but two different levels of coaching, I suppose, right? So you and I, you know, we're we're certified coaches that coach people. It's a profession. And, you know, I'm just to clarify, talking about teaching uh managers how to, and I I should say, I like the term people leader better than manager, to teach people leader how to use coaching skills, right? Um but the one thing I say to these folks up front is you're you're never gonna purely have that coach hat on all the time because you wear so many different hats. Sometimes you are the manager, sometimes you are a teacher, sometimes you are a mentor, and sometimes you could be a coach. And and it's helping leaders understand which hat is the best to wear at that time in service of the of the person and the team.

SPEAKER_01 10:57

Yeah, I love that. You know, I think it's about giving people as many tools as possible. And and and I love that you educate people on coaching skills, Kirk, because I think you know that it's a really great set of tools to have when so that you can you can pull on it when it's needed. So talk to me a little bit about you, you know, the language matters, right? You and I are both people, I think, for who, you know, I can say this like language matters. We get how powerful language is, and and being able to use um like just create worlds inside of language. And so for some people they might think the difference between calling someone a manager or a people leader is semantics, or but um why do you think that that that is a it's more meaningful or that it makes a difference when we speak about people leaders versus managers?

SPEAKER_02 11:54

Yeah, absolutely. Um so for me it's it it it's really simple. You know, people and and you've heard this, we've heard this. Um people typically get promoted in organizations to manage other people because they have been a high-performing individual contributor, right? They're really good at what they do, so let's make them a manager, let's give them a team. And what they don't do is teach those people how to manage people, right? They've been responsible for projects, goals, you know, um, that sort of thing, task-oriented versus people leaders. And so um, you know, the good thing for those of us doing this work is there'll always gonna be work for us helping to train people leadership. But I call it that because, you know, I believe, and I'd like to know what you think of this too, Amber, is I believe there are some people who are more natural at leading people, you know, at be at having that human connection, if you will. And there are others that it isn't as natural. But what I do believe is anybody can learn how and learn how to do it well, even if it's not natural for them, right? And so I like the term people leader because you know, I can't tell you how many times I've literally seen that aha moment where somebody in a managerial role, not necessarily a new manager, suddenly realizes it is all about my people. You know, if I'm treating my people well, they're going to perform. You know, and and that's why, you know, when I talk about teaching coaching skills, it's about the bottom line. It's about improving performance. Because when you're coaching people, you're giving them autonomy, you're setting them up to take on their own responsibility and accountability and and and challenge their capability, which in the end is only going to improve performance and improve the bottom line. So it's all so connected. And when people really get that, they realize they are a people leader, not just a task leader.

SPEAKER_01 13:57

And so I hadn't thought about it this way before, but you know, like coming from the world of like different personality types, and you know, there's there's different ways that you can assess personality types, you know, using things like disk and and other models like that. But if you actually look at that, like your you know, the epitome of a people leader would be someone who is like more reflective in nature and more people focused. Um and so those those really high performing task managers or people who are really good at high per, you know, more on the task side, the the more conscientious or dominant types, aren't necessarily going to be, you know, they're the ones who get, and I've heard this time and time again from people, you know, around, well, who gets promoted into management and and why do they get promoted? And sometimes people get promoted because they've just been in an organization for a really long time and they've been doing a good job as an individual contributor. And it's like there's a fear that they'll leave, or it's kind of like, regardless of whether assessing, you know, is this person, you know, with the skills and awareness and tools that they have right now, really set up powerfully in order to be able to lead a team. And I agree with you, anyone can be taught those things, even though there are some people that are more natural. But it might even make sense in organizations to split those. Like that if you're gonna have someone who's like who's responsible for the performance of the team, not their goals necessarily, but that that that they are performing, that they have what they're they need, that they're being taken care of, that you could even have someone, I've never thought about it this way, but you could even have someone else whose accountability is that the team meets certain objectives and and that those two people would work in conjunction together.

SPEAKER_02 15:46

That's an interesting concept, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:48

Yeah, I never thought about it till now, but it's like perhaps that that would you would look at man like promoting people differently inside of, you know, there is an element that we do want to care for our people and make sure our people have their needs met, and that the the ultimate person, the best person to do that work, may not be the best person to be accountable for the objectives.

SPEAKER_02 16:14

That's a that's really interesting. I hadn't thought of that before because I'm sure you've encountered situations like I have where um you know managers are just struggling because they're not a people leader. And uh, you know, I uh there's there's one that I talk about frequently in my training programs that is a real situation uh on a place where I used to work. And um, you know, a really high performer was like, and when I say high performer, this was a sales role, um, usually got up to 200% of her bonus, like incredibly high performer. And so the next sort of step in her career was to manage a sales team. And she was not a natural people leader, and you know, though she tried, she just wasn't good with people, and and you know, we could explore that so on, but to the point where the team started to leave and and people were looking for other roles and or just quitting. And finally we we had to sit down with this person and you know talk to them about it. Now, thankfully, there was another role that you know they were able to give her, which was again a um individual contributor role at a higher level, but again, she just shone, right? And so, you know, it was a real lesson that you just, you know, I said everybody can learn and be good at it, but I think there has to be a desire. There has to be, you know, um it they have to be motivated to do that as well. And if not, um and and sadly we can't always find another role. Um, so it's uh it's interesting.

SPEAKER_01 17:51

Yeah, I'm reminded I I participated in a leadership coaching program once, and and the way the structure of the program worked is like, you know, you did the program yourself, and and inside of doing the program, the leadership program yourself, it was all about causing your own results as an individual. And then you could choose to stay on and and coach. And and at the you know, the first kind of level of that coaching, you were responsible for you know, a handful of people participating in the program. So now you're you're accountable for their results, right? And then at the next level, you were like head coaching, so you had, you know, perhaps three or four coaches that then had four or five participants. And I remember like, I mean, it was an incredible experience, but it is a completely different skill set to cause performance in another person. And if even if you are someone who's really good at performing yourself, when you've now, when you're now responsible or accountable for causing the performance of others, uh I mean, I grew and developed in ways that I couldn't even imagine. And it was incredibly confronting because you can't just force people for me. I can just like I know how to like motivate myself or push myself or you know, in order to keep going towards achieving the goal, but not everyone's like me. And so then it really requires getting over there where the other person is to understand what is gonna empower them, what's gonna motivate them. How do I, you know, they're they're here, presumably because they have a commitment and they want to perform, and then they're dealing with whatever barriers they're dealing with inside of. And this program was specifically designed to really drive up um a lot of the parts of our identity or our default brain patterns that got in the way of our performance. So it was interesting in that way.

SPEAKER_02 19:47

That would be good. You know, um, it's interesting. You made me think of um, you know, I I love how you said get over onto the other side with them, right? Um, see see the view from their side of the bridge. Someone said to me once, and I, you know, when I'm ever training, let's particularly newer managers, newer leaders, I always sort of tease them a little bit and say, how many of you feel it's your responsibility to motivate your team? Put your hand up. And you know, most of them put their hand up. And uh they real, although they're looking at me going, that sounds like a trick question. And and it is, right? Because, you know, I always follow that by saying, you know, it isn't up to you to motivate them. Can you truly motivate another person? I think what we can do is we can understand what motivates that other person. And then as the leader, perhaps we have more power to create conditions that align with what motivates that person, but can we literally motivate another person? You know, that's a real interesting question. So I love that.

SPEAKER_01 20:45

I actually got a lesson in this myself. Um, like so, you know, like recently, and I love that that we get to keep growing and and and developing ourselves, Kirk. So as an as an instructor and facilitating online, like I don't know about you, but it's exhausting. Like I and I've tried reframing it. I've tried because, you know, for the most part, more often than not, I find the students don't want to have their cameras on. And so you're kind of like facilitating into a dead zone, right? You're not getting any feedback back. It takes so long to, you know, you've got to give a lot of space because people might have to type an answer, and you don't even know if they're pondering your question, right? So, and then I had this conversation. So I'm, you know, I had this course a couple of weeks ago. I was teaching on the Tuesday and the Thursday. It was conflict negotiation and conflict resolution. And and so I taught on the Tuesday, and I was having a conversation with one of my mentors after, and and she said something to she said to me, she goes, you know, you know it's not your job that they get the the learning. You know it's not your job that they get the educ, like that they get educated. And I was like, I stopped for a second, well, I'm like, well, I'm the teacher, like I'm the instructor. I isn't it kind of my job? She goes, No, it's your job. To provide the content, but it's a partnership, Amber. They have to be willing to learn. They have to pull the information towards them. You can't, you know, if you kind of like that, you can't do them. Like you can't motivate them. They have to want to learn. They have to want, and I think this is the same in coaching relationships. Like coaches can't want it more than the people they're coaching. It doesn't work.

SPEAKER_02 22:23

Because then it's about the coach, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:25

Yeah. So and and it with there was just such a freedom. Like when I actually thought about that kind of logically, I was like, oh yeah, really. I can't, they've got to pull the learning towards them. They've got to be on, you know, kind of like on the edge of their seat. Like, I'm here, I'm invested in getting as much out of this. And I can create the conditions, I can create the agreements, I can, I can provide the content in a way that I know is engaging, but at the end of the day, it's a partnership. And they have to be willing to learn. And if they're not, there's nothing I can do about that.

SPEAKER_02 22:57

You know, it is, it's freeing, isn't it? And and, you know, it sort of along those lines, um, going back to teaching leaders coaching skills, it's so interesting to see how freeing it is for a manager to realize they don't have to have all the answers as the coach. Just like we don't have to um, you know, put it all on our shoulders that the people take the learning, right? It's up to them as well. And so, you know, that's the other thing I love about, you know, managers learning to coach is that they realize, you know, they need to be a good coach. They need to ask good questions, they need to listen carefully, they need to be present with their teams and focused with them. But um, it's not up to them to have all the answers to all the questions. And when people get that, you just literally see this relief, you know.

SPEAKER_01 23:47

It is. I love the you the word freeing. And like 2022 is like really my journey into partnership. And and like, so now I'm like seeing because I'm looking and I'm inquiring into what does partnership look like newly, and like giving up that like perhaps I have no idea, like perhaps I have actually have no idea what it means to be a partner or to partner, and I could discover um and and this idea like that I partner with my students, that it's not um me an expert at the front of the room, but us together creating an experience of learning, right? It's just something. And so when I went back and taught on the Thursday, it was like a completely different experience because I just got to be, and I wasn't as tired afterwards because I could tell, I could see in hindsight that so much of it had been about me trying to get them somewhere and make sure that I did a good job. And and that actually was like really that that was part of what was exhausting about the whole experience was like that pressure that I put on myself to perform versus just like I'm here doing something that I love to do, which is imparting knowledge and and giving people tools, and and they're gonna use those tools and that awareness and that knowledge however they choose to or not.

SPEAKER_02 25:04

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, love it.

SPEAKER_01 25:06

Yeah, so great. So as someone who works in organizations today, I mean, we hear this a lot, we talk about it a lot. I mean, you know, sometimes people are like, oh, I don't want to talk about COVID anymore. But you know, it has been uh an extraordinarily challenging couple of years for leaders and and it and it kind of continues to be. It's I we were talking about this just before we came on. Um it seems like for for people at all levels of organizations, Kirk, that there is no light at the end of the tunnel. There's just more tunnel, right? In in a way that people perhaps haven't experienced before. Um they're just keep being asked to dig deeper and deeper and deeper, do more with less. And and this has been, I think, a trend in companies for a while now. But I would love to hear your thoughts on, you know, what are some of the challenges that leaders are dealing with today? Um and and how perhaps maybe we could talk about how could can create a coaching culture really um support leaders in in being able to manage the circumstances.

SPEAKER_02 26:15

Wow. So a couple big questions there. Let let me touch on the leader, you know, the challenges right now first. And and you know, I want to believe that the getting more and more out of your people, um I don't I don't think that's necessarily an intention. I think it's been a byproduct or a result of this shift into this virtual environment that everybody is in right now, right? Because what I'm and and what I mean by that is I don't think leadership, and I'm we're generalizing here, of course, because I'm seeing companies that are doing this really, really well and others that are doing it really badly. And I think that the ones that are doing it badly just don't know how to do it. And so the end result has been this um, you know, productivity explosion to the point of burnout, right? Where literally people are sitting, or in my case, standing in front of their computer screens um without a break between meetings. You know, we used to get up from our desk and walk to the bathroom, walk to grab a drink or do something and then or walk to the next meeting. Now we're just click, click, click, and we're at the next meeting, you know, and so there's no break. And I think that um, you know, I'm I'm happily seeing that start to change. I'm seeing organizations much more aware of what is happening. Unfortunately, probably because of turnover, probably because of this, what are they calling it, the great resignation, probably all of those things, people are going, what's going on here? Right. And so we need to do something different. Um, and people are are starting to be more aware that we need some white space again in our calendars. We need, even if it's five minutes, even if it's time between a meeting. And, you know, the other thing that I think is at play here, and and please jump in because I kind of go all over the place on this. No, I love it. Keep going. Is um, you know, this idea of so, so I I've been working with an organization, I won't say who they are, for for about three years now. So pre-COVID, we started working together. And at the time, they were already shifting into this what they call a results-only work environment where you can work anywhere, anytime, as long as you get the results, you get your projects done, you get your work done, right? So this was a huge shift for this organization. It is a large national organization, and so this was huge just logistically. So, but they were starting to work from home and figure all this out about a year, probably more than a year before COVID hit. So it was interesting to use them as an example that I was witnessing on how they shifted what work looked like. And, you know, and and then suddenly every other organization was put unexpectedly into that situation, although not results only, just that you're now working from home, but we still want all the results at the same time. And so organizations started to realize we need to look at work differently, I think. And we need to re figure out ways to reincorporate how people connect personally, um, how people make sure that they're managing their own time such that they have some free time in there. Um, look at people who are, you know, there's so many pieces to this, right? If you can work anywhere at any time, well, I might be emailing somebody at midnight, but then I can't have an expectation, they're gonna email me back. And so all of these things have to be figured out again. It's a whole new world. Um, and so I think even as things feel like we're starting to get, you know, back towards at least the start of what will be our new normal, it's gonna be different, right?

SPEAKER_01 29:53

So I don't know, I've said a lot and I'm all over the place about it, but no, I I I love what you said, and and I think, you know, let's let's just be honest. When people worked in offices, they did not work eight hours a day. Not at all. Not even close. Like, and and I think this is something that needs to, you know, like we could address in the conversation. And and and it wasn't a problem, by the way. People would have social time at each other's desks, they would stop in hallways, they would build build relationships, they would get to know what was going on with each other's lives. And and all of those were really important parts of getting results or achieving results of performing. Because, you know, as we talk about leadership, conflict resolution, all of these things, the more relatedness there is between people, the more I understand what's going on in your life, the more able, you know, the more grace I'm willing to have with you. If you're having an off day, I've got space for that. Um, and and all of a sudden we moved online, and then then, you know, all of these questions about how are we going to manage performance? Are people gonna do their job? It became this expectation that, well, for every minute from nine to five or whatever your working hours were, that you be working.

SPEAKER_02 31:04

Exactly. And and you know what's fascinating about this is, you know, I'm sure you've heard Dan Pink, who quotes, you know, what motivates people in the workplace is uh mastery, purpose, and autonomy, right? But when COVID hit, I think there's a fourth one that we didn't think about, and that was connection. I mean, call it connection, call it relationship. And so now we took that one for granted. Like you just said, we had it all in the workplace, right? You could walk by someone's desk and catch up, and you know, we we had that connection and we're wired as human beings for that connection, and suddenly it's not there. So, yes, we focused everything just on the work, and I, you know, without even consciously realizing this huge gap that was created around connection. And so when I say, you know, organizations that I see are doing a good job of it now, is they're reincorporating that connection, you know, in little ways, like you know, a manager in you know, the first 10 minutes of a team meeting is nothing about work. It's all about what's everyone up to? What are they doing? What do they do on the weekend? And they're reconnecting people. And I think that a leader now, going back to leadership, need to be connectors of people again. Um, you know, so yeah, I couldn't agree more.

SPEAKER_01 32:14

I and it's that culture of, you know, I even find myself like I'll start writing an email and then I have to like go back and say, oh, hi, how are you? Right, correct. Which is like so like to the point, you know, I need this or this, you know, where are we at with this? Is this getting done? And it's like, and and I would never just walk up to someone's desk and be like, Do you have that report? Exactly. I would never, I wouldn't do that. I would walk up to their desk and be like, hey Kurt, how are you doing? Like, what's going on? You know, how's your day? And then I'd be like, oh, you know, why I'm here is I need X, right? And but like those, those interactions are not meaningless. They are actually very meaningful and they're a part of you, you talk about, um, and I love what you said about, you know, like connections and service to each other and community and and being able to contribute is all part of like having a fulfilled life and a fulfilled experience of yourself and the work, like in your work. Um, they are, I think, an integral part. And and and companies who are going to, you know, thrive going forward, I think are are really gonna recognize that whatever the workplace looks like on the other side. And it's interesting because I don't whatever people think it like we were gonna go back to, I don't I don't think there is any going back at this point in time. You know, I'm hearing more and more people are people have moved, right? Like they've like they've been working home from home and they've taken the opportunity to move to different places. And now how do they, you know, there's talk about going back into the office. Well, can you are you gonna be able to fire someone because you had them working from home for two years and now you've decided you want them back in the office and they were performing their job? Like it's I can only imagine for like, you know, and these are some of the pressures on leaders today, right? People don't want to get vaccinated or they it's not aligned with their values, and now you got to let them go. You know, people have been working from home and they've been performing from home. So can you actually justify laying someone off or firing them because they're they now no longer that they don't want to come back into the office because it's it's a very interesting, it's a very interesting time.

SPEAKER_02 34:24

Well, and and I think, you know, on on that note, you know, comparing, I'm gonna go back to that organization that I've been working with where they started doing this before COVID. And and one of the things they had to work out is when do we need people together in the office again? Because they still felt, and I still believe there is a value to that, right? There are some things that are better face to face, right? Where we truly get real body language. Like, you know, we're not getting real body language on video, you know. I think what is what are the studies now telling us that really important more people are looking at themselves than the other person anyway, um, in the video because we're drawn, you know. So are we even really picking up the same cues like we used to from each other anyway? But that's a whole other thing. But um, they had to look for, you know, where's the value in this? And that's when we can still, I don't know if they use the word require, but request that people do come in for these things. And I think that's what we're gonna have to look at is is it just to be in the office for the sake of being in the office? Yeah, you know, does that make any sense? Right. So um, and I don't know what the answer is. I think it's gonna depend on on the work, the team, the what are they delivering on, you know, et cetera, right?

SPEAKER_01 35:35

Well, and and I think there like there's so many nuances to it. I was just thinking about, because as we've been sitting here, uh, you know, I keep getting pop-ups on Teams and things like that. You know, when we were in the office together, if someone was in a meeting, you would not walk into the meeting room and be like, can I can I get this from you? And I'm guilty of it too. Like I message people, I message one of my subject matter experts. I message him all the time when he's uh in a meeting. Because in my mind, it's like, oh, he'll just get back to me down the road, like after his meeting's done. And I'm thinking about this right now, right? But I'm not thinking about it from his perspective of that's an interruption. And I do know that he'll stop what he's like, he'll he'll respond to me in the meeting. Probably that's partly why I do it, because I need an answer quickly and I know he's gonna get back to me. Yeah. But if we were in the office together, I never would have walked into a meeting room and been like, Brian, I need this right now. Like, can you give this to me right now? Right. Um, and so how are we like, what are some of maybe some of the less helpful habits that we've developed during COVID? Like, you know, messaging people at all times and not not paying attention to where they're at, so that people can really just be focused on on the task at hand versus trying to manage so many different things.

SPEAKER_02 36:59

Well, and I think COVID has probably just magnified that example, right? Because let's face it, the whole fact of being Pavlo's dog with our phone when it dings, whether it's messenger or whatever, has been on going on for a lot longer, you know, um, than just COVID. But I think it's amplified it because now we are working at all hours and different hours. And yeah, and we've lost that awareness of uh, I don't know, you're right, how to how it affects the other person, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 37:28

Yes. And when we were in meeting rooms, there was a tendency to try not to look at your phone because there's that social behavior, right? So like, and it's interesting because I noticed a few weeks ago, like I got to the point where my email dinged and I almost had like a trigger response.

SPEAKER_02 37:43

We do, yeah, absolutely. I know that's like true. Most of my notifications off. It's like, what is really that important, you know?

SPEAKER_01 37:51

So good. Um so good. So, you know, from your experience, how did and and I I love what you talked about, like the moving towards a results-oriented culture, because I think, you know, at the end of the day, does it really matter? And I say this to to the people I coach sometimes, like people get we get really attached to the how things look sometimes, right? But it's like you say you want X results, you know, short of it being immoral or against your values, do you actually really care how that money flows to you? Does it really matter? Like you say you want to be earning 10 grand a month or 20 grand or whatever the the dollar figure is. Does it do you really care how you earn that that money? You just want the money to flow to you, right? So we get attached sometimes to what things look like. But if if at the end of the day, what really matters to a company is achieving X results for whatever reason, then you know, I think it it does when you can free your people up inside of that, you know, and have them get creative and have them really learn how they can have their whole life work and perform and achieve inside of their commitment to their work. Um, I know for myself, like since becoming an entrepreneur and and working for myself, and I probably work more now than I ever did before, but I have the experience that I'm creating my life. Like I can get up and come to California for five weeks and you know, and time shift my day and and you know, still meet all of the the the you know, not obligations, I don't see it that way, but commitments I have to contribute in various different places. Uh, but I have a richer experience of my life than I did when I was kind of what I would say, chained to a desk, you know, my name before I was 25.

SPEAKER_02 39:42

And I think, and me too. I I agree with that so much as well. Um, you know, and I I've never liked my boss as much as I do right now, you know, working for myself. But but what's interesting, you know, when you think about it, um, you know, everybody in the last couple of years, you know, assuming, you know, assuming you were one of the more um I'm struggling to use the right word here. I don't want to say lucky, but people who didn't have issues losing jobs and people who didn't, you know, because there's so much of that that it's just been horrible over the last two years, but people that kept their job and it shifted, let's just say that, you know, got a taste of that, right? Probably for some of them the first time, that that freedom, that flexibility, that ability to control your own work. And for some it was great, for others, it was probably scary and took a lot of getting used to, right? But the fact, you know, now if we're saying you just have to shift back and now go back into an office and follow all these rules and during the specific time of day, it's gonna be really hard. Um, so you know, we're not out of the woods, you know, we may be um leaving hopefully some of this stuff behind us that we've experienced the last two years, but it's gonna be a whole new getting used to of that for people.

SPEAKER_01 40:50

Um yeah, and and for some, like they'll never know the other world. As someone pointed out to me, there's so many like things that we haven't can, you know, that you may not have considered about the impacts of COVID that I don't know that we'll know for a long time. But for people who entered the workforce newly, young graduates, you know, in the past two years, they may never go into a traditional workplace. So what's the impact of that? Right? Like, and and not necessarily a bad, uh, you know, a negative impact, maybe it's it's good, but you know, for those of us, how do they learn how to relate to people who who had that experience of working in an office together and and maybe mourning that or grieving that and and and miss not having that anymore, right? How do you create um ways for people to to to really understand all sides of it? Because I think there are lots of people who are gonna have really different be in very different places managing this change.

SPEAKER_02 41:48

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, we're we're gonna see the effects of this uh on so many levels for years to come. No question.

SPEAKER_01 41:57

Well, and I think like if I believe that everything's unfolding for the greatest good. So, you know, as much as it may be uncomfortable at times, I do think what's gonna come out the other side of all of this change um will be uh I'm my my hope really is that it it's gonna be an an improvement in in the quality of life for people, an improvement in you know how we do business, and and perhaps maybe that we uh, as you say, there's a little more care and compassion uh in in the you know, in the way that we interact with people.

SPEAKER_02 42:35

I hope so, because I think, you know, um that's what's sadly been challenged, I think, especially in this last really recent times, is you know, the caring and compassion. Um, you know, you and I chatted about this briefly, but I think we're seeing divisions today that I've never experienced in this country before, not to the degree of it is right now. And and my compassion has been really severely tested, um, and and still is, and and and it's tough, you know, it it's um it's been so polarizing. Um, so yeah, I I I I want to believe you're right. Like we need to get back to that again. Um, if I don't know, is it get back to it or just realize how important it is and figure out how to do that going forward? I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 43:28

Yeah, and I I I like what you said there because I think there has been historically, we talk about like you know, I talk often about networks of conversations, there has been a network of conversations around business that never made a lot of sense to me. That was like, you know, and and it can get summed up in that it's not personal, it's business. That for some reason, that when we enter into this space of business, that our humanity or you know, the the our our human the need for connection. Need for care and compassion, all of a sudden these things just don't apply that people can go into this space. And I always would, you know, interesting to see it from a child's perspective, right? Like you're sitting around the dinner table and you're talking about your days, and you know, you're you're talking, you know, the child's caring about getting bullied at school, and the parents are like, be nice and you know, take care of each other and like all of these values that we say that we have. And then mom or dad starts talking about things in the office and how they just laid off a thousand people for the bottom line. And and I would, I could imagine a child kind of being like, is that playing nice with everyone in the playground? And then, you know, it's not about being nice, but you talk about this this authentically speaking and authentically doing, right? Is there alignment? And I think um there has been a lack of congruence in leadership in terms of like really looking at, and I believe, you know, one of the values of my business is people first, you know, and when you put people first, the results take care of themselves. Uh, you know, people, I I believe, and I I said this to my, I was teaching my leadership class last night, and someone asked me about like how do you deal when you have a stakeholder who's difficult or they're not they're not working with you or whatever. And I'm like, well, you start by looking at at what are my views about people? What are the assumptions that I make about people? How do what's my point of view about people? Do I believe that people are, you know, want to perform and want to do a good job and want to contribute and you know, and that people have barriers to their participation in life? Right. Or do I believe that people am I more cynical? Do I believe that people are lazy and people don't want to perform and they're just trying to get by and do as little as possible? Because how I view people impacts how I show up and how I interact with them.

SPEAKER_02 45:52

Oh my gosh. You know, that and when I teach coaching to leaders, that's one of the things that I start off with is the mindset to coach, is you have to believe in, you know, that people are um, you know, do want to do their best and contribute and make a difference. Because if you don't, you're not gonna be a coach, right? If you don't believe that, you're gonna be directive, you're gonna tell them what to do, you're gonna micromanage. If you do believe that, you're gonna challenge them, you're gonna give them that autonomy, you're gonna trust them. And uh, you know, you're absolutely right, couldn't agree with you more. And and I think one thing I want to add to what you said is um, you know, it's it's connecting with our own values, but it's also understanding somebody else's values. And, you know, and this is such an important part of the whole inclusive, you know, uh conversation we're having today, right? Is really understanding where our values are different and and you know uh and and where they're the same, right? And maybe it's looking for that commonality sometimes that will help bring that compassion back too.

SPEAKER_01 46:52

I love it. That seems like a perfect place to end for now. And I say for now because I look forward to connecting with you again, Kirk. Thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing your passion and your commitment for people, really. Uh, and that that leaders have you know the tools that they need in order to be able to really um bring out the best in themselves and others. And and just thank you for being someone who's out there in the world doing that work. And for those of you listening to the show, you can find out how to connect with Kirk and develop ink in the show notes.

SPEAKER_02 47:25

Thanks a lot, Amber. All the best to you.

SPEAKER_01 47:28

Have a great week, everyone.

SPEAKER_00 47:30

Thank you so much for joining us for this week's episode. For more information on the show and our extraordinary guests, check out whatwoodamberdo.com.