Welcome to What Would Amber Do with your host, Amber Howard. Each week, Amber dances in conversation with inspirational leaders out to make a difference for what matters most to people. She brings you incredible guests who share their real life experiences of being a leader and what it looks like to live a truly created life of service to others. And now, here is your host.

Welcome back, everyone. Welcome back to What Would Amber Do. It is my honor and privilege today to be speaking with Brenna Davis. Brennan is a CEO, number one best-selling, international best-selling author, sustainability innovator, speaker, board advisor, and coach. She has worked with leaders from billion-dollar companies to new startups on becoming sustainable while also turning a profit. Her commitment is to heal herself and the earth so that future generations can thrive and have fun. I love that last little bit, and we're going to talk about that for sure. Brennan, welcome. It's so good to have you on the show. Thank you for being here.

Thank you, Amber. I'm so happy to be here with you. And fun is important.

Fun is very important. It wasn't important for me for most of my life, but it is very important now, and we'll get into that for sure. Brennan and I were recently involved in an amazing book project called She's a Boss, and we'll also be talking about that today. But, you know, I'd love to start with like you specifically in your commitment, talk about healing yourself and the earth. So, you know, what has your journey of healing or your journey to get to today been like, Brennan?

Yeah, well, I always include healing myself when I talk about healing the earth. Um, and that's because healing ourselves is important. If we're gonna heal anything outside of us, we first need to be healed. And in um, Who's a Boss? I I really um she's who's the boss, and she's a boss. Oh, sorry, Amber. It's so funny. Who's the boss? Isn't that the 80s uh TV show?

That was the 80s TV show.

Yes, podcast everybody. Um, anyway, in the book, I I talk about how as a kid I was really shy. Um, I actually almost flanked kindergarten, if you can even imagine it, because I was just I didn't talk a lot. I was really introverted. And you know, the world doesn't have a lot of space for introverts at times. And so I had a long process of gaining confidence in myself, in finding my own voice, and figuring out what really mattered to me. And then really, um, I was so lucky in my life and the way I designed it that I was able to work on environmental issues since the 90s until now. And so a big part of that process of being an effective environmental leader was in healing myself and my voice so that I could get out there and speak for the whales, speak for the climate, speak for those things that don't have a voice. So it's been a process, and you know, I went from like really bad kindergarten experience to um, you know, being on live TV and talking about how how live morning TV talking about how to protect salmon and protect um, you know, endangered species. So it was quite a journey.

Those early childhood experiences really do, I think a lot of our lives, especially those of us who kind of start doing any kind of personal development work, which I which I can hear that you've done, you know, like healing that healing work. I think a lot of that work, it's not about like why did these things happen to me so much, but like I think understanding um, you know, things happen to us in our life and then we make it mean something, or you know, so like unpacking all of that and then creating new beliefs based on what it is that we want and where we are today versus you know the beliefs that we may have inherited or created as a function of kind of early childhood experiences. So, you know, want to acknowledge you for doing that work because it takes something. You know, I talk a lot about living a creative life, and I say to people, it's not a comfortable life. No, want a comfortable life, don't try and create your life because you know you've got to deal with yourself in the process of really looking at what do I want and what matters to me and what am I committed to.

Um that's so true. And especially if you're a change agent, like if your job is a change agent, um it's it's harder. And I I tell people I've mentored hundreds of people, like I reserve um half an hour every Friday to mentor young people or especially women and people of color that are coming into sustainability jobs. And I tell them this thing that's kind of uncomfortable, but I say, you know, one of the things you should do is invest in therapy. Because if you if you think that you're gonna be able to be a change agent, there's has to be change within you so that you can be more effective. Because being a change agent will trigger you. And so, how do you find your voice? How do you show up in a way where you have your own back? How are you as kind to yourself as you would be to your best friend?

Yeah, I love that being kind to yourself. And and because I think that is, I mean, even we've been training some of our team here in Bali on mindset, and you know, it's been good to kind of go back to the big like the starting points and and just getting like the brain has a, you know, like it's got a well, they like to say a slight tilt to the negative, but I think it's more than slight if I think if we're honest, right? So it's like being kind to us is not not like it's not inherently or naturally there, right? As human beings. And I think it is like, you know, like gratitude, other things, a practice that you have to develop. And and one of the things I've noticed through this last massive change for me, moving to Bali, moving in with a man for the first time in 13 years, leaving my sons in Canada, my mom, is like how easy it is to default to old strategies that were once effective, or even if you know you thought they were effective, but they're they're not a match for where you are today. So it is it's ongoing work. It it's and I don't mean to say like work like it's hard, but it's just there's like it's a you know, having worked and changed in corporations for most of my career as well. I think it's you know it's not a kind of one and done thing. It's something that you get to keep, you know, you have the opportunity to keep tending to.

Yeah, yeah. And you know, um, he makes such a great point. And you know, the Dalai Lama says, if you don't have that, he says, like the way you get developed compassion for for others is developing compassion for yourself. And Western society is we're you know, Angeli's Arian says we're addicted to what's not working, um, and we're also addicted to perfection. It's like, so if we're in Western society and we're addicted to like what's not working and we're perfectionists, oh my gosh. So really it's like, how do we look at what is working? And then how do we go for excellence and not perfection?

Well, and and and then you come on top of that, like we there's like shame, right? And like spaces, like not safe spaces for people to really talk about their authentic experience and being alive, right? There's so much needing to look good or keep appearances up, or you know, like whatever, you know, as women I find a lot not wanting to bother other people, or you know, like I I've had massive breakthroughs over the last year, especially in relationship around being upset and communicating when I'm upset and not having to like swallow that back and stifle being upset. Um, and then just allowing, you know, and it's not the end of the world that, you know, like I say to my partner, yeah, I'm gonna get upset sometimes. I'm a Scottish warrior princess, you know, like I get I get upset sometimes. I'm feeling it's not the end of the world, we'll work through it. But I used to be someone who felt like I couldn't express that upset because, you know, it was like inappropriate, or you know, in past relationships, it was just dangerous to express upset. And um, so when you have that focus on not what's not working with the you know the standard of perfection and then people not free to be able to be authentic about what their lived experience is, uh it it creates no wonder we drink a lot and use drugs and overeat and do all of these things that we do as human beings to dissociate, right?

Because try to stuff it. Yep. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting. You talked about being pissed off. I call that part of me my inner Viking. Oh, my inner Viking just got activated. I better uh no, Vikings are peaceful people. I just mean I'm I'm also part part, you know, scand Scandinavian by ancestry, but uh I I kind of I know what it's like to get pissed off. But I feel I tell people that that work with me, I say, you know, one day you're gonna be really pissed off at me, and that's okay. Can you just come to me and let's work through it? Yeah, also like you, if you're pissed off at me, it means that that's something's important to you and that you know people get angry when um they care about something. Yeah, if they're not getting angry, that's when you kind of go, Oh wow, that's an issue, you know.

Yeah, I love that. And I think you're right. You know, it's like I'm I'm present in this conversation to, you know, when Brene Brown talks about like in her very famous like kind of um TED talk about numbing emotion and how you can't numb selectively, right? So if you're numbing pain and anger and you know, all of the what we consider not positive effects, then you're also numbing joy and happiness. And and so it's like, you know, what if people were just free to express? And and I love what you said, you know, it's okay if you're gonna, you know, you're mad at me and well, you know, I'll still like you. Like, because I think there's that perception that if people are if there's upset in a relationship, then that's the end, right? And it's like, you know, or that it's gonna impact the relationship in such a way that people aren't gonna be able to move past it or whatever. And I I I um you know, you didn't use these words, but I think we're I I hear that we're kind of aligned that anything can get worked out in communication.

Oh, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I think that's true. But I love hearing about I love hearing about you finding your voice and and you know, embracing your anger and being able to express yourself because you know what people really really want, I think it's a great example. And and what people really want in the world is to be heard and to be understood, you know. And then there's so little of that right now. And if we can just give someone that gift of listening and trying to understand, it goes a long way.

I um you remind me of a couple of I I instruct project management and change management and other things. And I've and several times in classes, I've like asked my students, like in the conversation around communication and specifically listening, like, when was the last time you had the experience of like really deeply being understood or heard in communication? And I would say with almost without fail, the majority of people that I ask that question to can't actually remember if if they ever have been.

Amber, that's powerful, like to know that. I know it was like during my coaching training, I did um a coaching, you know, nine-month coaching thing during COVID because I thought I said, you know, I'm gonna emerge out of this like better, better off. I'm gonna figure out how when I have this little cocoon, how I'm gonna be a butterfly and emerge out of this. And so I did a couple things, but one of them was taking this coaching program and what and and they taught you to listen. And they also listened to your sessions. And what they said was a lot of the questions that you're asking, Brenna, there's opinions embedded in it. They said, You're not, you're not, you're not actually listening. Um, so that was a real eye-opener, and so I really had to work on that. Um, but it really is that question are we deeply listening to understand, or are we listening to express our opinion about what we think the person's saying?

Yeah, and and inside of that, it's like also listening. You know, I participated in a leadership training program a while back, and one of the things they taught us was this idea of recreation. And like, so like when you're recreating someone's communication, you're you're getting what they're saying, nothing added or taken away. You're like not adding, and and I could be accused of being guilty of that more than once in my life, like adding my own, you know, slant or beudit to other people's communication, but you're also listening for their for their experience and you're like recreating their experience and their commitment. So even when, and and this is like magic, like even when people are upset or angry, like if you can, you know, like if you can say, like, I can hear how frustrated you are because you're really committed that we be more effective or that you know that things really work around here, or whatever it is that they're, you know, that that we that we can actually communicate, whatever the the commitment is, it disappears upset. Like when people actually and I think like so many people, and even in my own life, I've I've seen this time and time again, we have recurring conversations because the communication on one side or the other has never really actually gotten. So people just have to keep saying the same thing over and over and over again because they're not being heard. And then I think about this like the work that you do, and you know, as I'm moving more into the impact sector myself, like what are all of these global conversations that we have to keep we get or we are having over and over again? Because on both sides of the conversation, people are not having not actually hearing each other and not actually, you know, getting other people's experience or commitment.

Yeah. Yeah, it's really interesting. I I started working on environmental issues like in the late 90s, and I wanted to do this thing called um basically, you know, well, there's no word for it yet, but it was helping businesses reduce their environmental impact. So I hacked my environmental science degree and took a bunch of policy and I did an internship in an oil refinery because I thought that's where people need me the most, and I want to go there and learn why businesses make the decisions they make. So I did a lot of work with them on reducing their impact and on um recycling and a bunch of really cool projects. And um, you know, the thing is about working on environmental issues, I've seen over those decades starting with something that doesn't even have a name. I think we called it industrial ecology to it, it having a name. And then now, like 80% of Americans believing that climate change is happening and that it's affecting us. So, so, and and throughout those 20 years, I did have a dark night of the soul when you talk about like repeating yourself over and over again. I mean, that's my whole life is repeating myself, like climate change is an issue. There's a lot we can do about it, we can fix it, we can work on it. Um, and you know, part of communication they say is repeat, telling people, telling people again, telling people again, telling people again. But I think in my case, I probably did that, you know, it went off like a fractal or you know, infinity symbol of saying, and there were times I thought, gosh, is this even worth it? Am I ever gonna work myself out of a job? Um, you know, so that I won't need to be working on a sustainable business where it just be integrated. And I think we're getting closer, Amber. But, you know, if I hadn't repeated myself over and over and over and over and over, um, you know, maybe the small amount of impact I I've had in my career wouldn't have happened, you know, if I just given up.

Well, I invite you to consider it's not a small amount of impact, right? Like, I really do believe that we create our world through what we speak and think. Like, and I've I've seen it in many other people's lives, I've experienced it in my own. And and so, like, and I also believe that we're as human beings, what we are is networks of conversation. So every time you spoke those words and invited people into that conversation and stood for, you know, that it be a global conversation, you and lots of other people who were lending your voices to that. Like, we literally have that those conversations are global conversations now, right? And and there's not a hundred percent alignment on what to do about them. And and we don't have all of the tools that we need to be able to solve them. I'm I'm actually I've given my word that we will solve the, you know, that we will have completed the United Nations sustainable development goals by my 50th birthday. So we have five and a half years. Yes. And and that is an audacious promise. But if no one says it, then it's not gonna happen. So I have no idea how to do that, but I suspect people like me showing up in my life are a step in the right direction. But I really like it's like, and and this is actually something I've been, you know, there's two things related to this topic that I I would really love to speak with you about. So one of them is like, how do we have people actually getting to talk about, you know, like getting to the root cause of the problem, right? So, you know, I remember watching a documentary on Netflix a while ago about the fishing industry and and the oceans. And, you know, in that documentary, it was from the same guy who did the document, I can't remember the name right now, but he did the documentary on the beef industry and and cows. And in that documentary, he said, and I I don't, I'm not an expert, so I don't know if this is actually true, but like if every single human being stopped using single-use plastics today, it would not make a dent in actually solving the world's problems around oceans. And I'm not saying don't stop using single-use plastics, but he said the real root cause of a lot of our problems in the oceans is fishing nets. Like over 50% of the plastic in the oceans is fishing nets. And he said the challenge is a lot of not-for-profits and NGOs that are out to save the oceans don't want to deal with conversations about what we eat because they're afraid that they might lose funding or that their members won't want to, you know, because their members don't want to be told don't eat fish. And I'm like, well, what if it wasn't about judging people's eating choices and, you know, you shouldn't eat fish or you should eat fish, whatever? But it was about how do we just get the freaking fishing nets out of the oceans and not have them get put back there, right? So yeah, how do we like given your, you know, your decades of experience in this space, like I'd love to hear your thoughts on um one, how do we support people in actually getting to talk about the root cause in two, instead of like so much, I think is of the effort is put on symptoms. And then the other thing is, you know, the quickest way to have more drugs is to declare a war on drugs, right? So the quickest way to have more of something, you know, like I really every time I hear people say the word recession right now, I cringe because I'm like, guys, if you want a recession, yeah, keep talking about a recession. If you don't want a recession, I really invite you, you know, it's like fifth wave of COVID, seventh wave. I'm like, just stop saying those things, right? And this is my belief, it's not the truth. But so much of the discourse I find around, you know, the poverty, climate change is focused on what we don't want. You know, it's kind of the earth is burning, we're in trouble, you know. And and I get it, it comes from a very good place. It's like a call to action, it's trying to get people to to respond to something. But so I'd love to hear yours, and I know I just threw a lot at you, but kind of those two things. How do we get to the root? I think you can handle it though. I'm guessing.

Yeah, I can handle it. It's all right.

How do we get to the root cause of things and how do we enable empower people to be speaking what they want into existence versus more of what they don't want?

Yeah, man, you've hit on so many um important things there. Um we talked about, you know, the addiction to what's not working, and uh um you know, part of understanding the environment is identifying the things that are problems, right? So that's part of what we have to do as scientists and concerned citizens is look around and say, hey, these are the things we need to fix. So whether that's ocean acidification or endangered species or fishing nets in the ocean or plastics, you know, we have to identify those problems to like think of what the future could be. But you're right, sometimes we get so mired in those problems in the environmental movement that we sort of have turned people off. And what you shared about communication and giving people hope in the communication is so important. And climate change communication used to be like, hey, this is happening and it's awful, we got to solve it or we're all gonna die. Um, climate change experts, um, uh like Ed Mybach have said, like, we need to focus on giving, like saying, yeah, this is real, it's happening, but there's a lot we can do about it. Like, let's start focusing on those solutions, let's start funding them, let's start, you know, having consortiums and talking about um climate issues and working on it in agriculture or working on it, you know, all these different spaces. So, so I think um I think that's starting to happen. And I think that's why we're seeing more traction on sustainability issues and why more and more companies are sort of coming to the table. Um, but it's super complicated. I mean, you're right about the fishing net. And, you know, um, when you said that, I thought about the um whale, the whale folks that are that work on on the island of Maui in Hawaii. They have people trained on how to remove um nets from uh the humpback whales that come there. And they have squads that go out and actually have dive in and they work to remove the nets because they get caught on these mother whales that come there to and father whales that go there to breathe in space. Yes. Um, but like there's a solution. Like they they they said we're gonna set up this group of people um we're gonna have have this way of dealing with that but um so there's a lot of people doing good but you're right the problem is so vast that it takes all of us and and and having the communication just focused on the problem is just uh is is a problem in itself and Amber scientists aren't trained on communication but we've been pushed into this arena of trying to figure out how do we become communicators because um we're so concerned and um man that's about finding your voice if you're so concerned about something then learn to speak up learn to share your thoughts so um anyway it there's a lot to unpack but there's something that each of us can do each of us can take an action every day to make the world better or to deal with environmental issues and you know you mentioned the SDGs sustainable development goals um I love them I think they're super exciting and I love that we're gonna have them achieved by your 50th birthday.

Thank you do it but part of that like you know I I do a lot of um future state visioning with uh my clients right and like you know in different sectors and like well what does like you know because to me like my process that I do with my with my clients whether it's coaching teaching consulting it's always the same like where are you wanting to get to or what are you wanting to create well where are you today? What are the gaps and what are the solutions to close those gaps right and um but part of the challenge I think with you know looking out to like a world where you know can you imagine like I I have a vision of global leaders sitting around a table to write the next next set of goals right and and like what would those goals even be when we've you know when there is no more poverty in the world including poverty mindset because you can't you're not going to eradicate poverty if you also don't cause a massive global transformation in the way we think and view scarcity and abundance right what would it look like if everyone had a safe and affordable home you know that they could you know where they could learn connection and belonging and and all of these things but there are like there are there are global shifts in thinking there are institutions that probably don't even exist yet that would need to come into creation in order to be able to actually solve these problems right so it's like that and getting the right people like no well people around a table to be in in the can you even envision because if you can think it right if you can see it you can create it but can you even give yourself the space and I think part of the challenge is a lot of the people in these spaces are so you you said it a little bit earlier I can't remember what exactly words you use but this idea of being like you know that dark night or being you know like feeling like you're in this like fight for for something and my friend Siobhan says it so beautifully she says you know a lot of people who work in these spaces feel like they're trying to mop up the ocean with a paper towel. It's like you know it's not enough time, not enough resources, not enough, you know, like and and for a lot of leaders in this space I think there's this feeling like there's never going to be enough right so at the top in leadership is like this resignation and scarcity that's part of the part of the you know it's just kind of embedded in the in the thinking and and probably a lot of it subconsciously right so yeah to me it's they're very exciting opportunities for how do we you know because I've learned over my career you need a great strategy and you need a great plan for change. 100% those things are important. But what's way more important is people's beliefs and their mindset because you know I can give you the best plan in the world but if you subconsciously don't believe that it's gonna happen then no matter how good the plan is, you know, and and you've clearly worked to change your whole career right yeah you can put a great change initiative in front of a group of people but if the majority of stakeholders think oh here we go again this is just like the last time and you know if nothing's gonna change then you're not gonna be successful no matter how good the plan is because it requires all of us to your point, right? We need everyone at the table.

We need everyone at the table and and you know one of the things that was so inspiring to me about this round of the sustainable development goals is instead of a bunch of bureaucrats sitting in a room like figuring out what the original SDG should be, in this round they talked to stakeholders and they had listening sessions and they spent time with thousands of people figuring out what the SDG goals should be. And I always think that if we can get more people at the table, we're gonna have better solutions. And that's why it's something I've always worked on in my career is getting more people of color and more women into environmental fields because we need their voices. We need our voices at the table so that we can come up with these creative solutions that we wouldn't think of otherwise. And we know based on science and studies that diverse groups turn out better solutions. So if we know that let's diversify the heck out of everything. Let's get more voices and more diversity at the table so that we can actually come up with better solutions. And um so you know that's one thing I've worked on quite a bit in my career. And um and I still am working on it and I will probably until I die but keep at it.

I'll keep at it I think that's like a real moment of freedom for me for me a couple months ago I I'm in this like year long training development program around expanding partnership in my life because this is like and I wrote about that was what my chapter of the book was around about because I spent most of my life trying to do everything on my own right and you know I I I accomplished a lot but you know didn't have a lot of fun if any fun and you know it was like a lot of really hard work and and so I'm like no a partnership is like where it's at right like how can how can we have those people at the table and but there was like a real moment of freedom for me when I got that you know and it and it was funny because that in the course they used a quote that I'd heard so many times, you know, this idea that you know wise people plant trees that future generations are going to sit under right but I got it at a whole new level like because I think like many people who have a commitment to transforming things at a global level there's been a lot of like weight associated with it or like heaviness to it. It's like it's significant right we're doing something really significant. Yeah it is right like it's like so yeah it feels like it's yeah go ahead and I and I got like what if I'm just like you know whatever has been accomplished you know like on the checked off to-do list because I really got I'm gonna die with the to-do list and I should just get over that right like um whatever's completed on my life goals to-do list like every day I'm planting seeds for future generations and other people whether it's how I interact with my team and encourage them and you know stand for their leadership whether it's with my children or my friends where I invite people and be a disruption and invite people ongoingly like stop talking about what you don't want you know and like every time I say that to people or like what do you want like inviting people to actually look at like empowering people you get to create your life you have a say in how this goes and um every one of those is a seed that's getting planted that's going to you know I may never see the the you know just like you I mean I can I can only imagine the amount of seeds that you've planted in your career and and just really want to acknowledge you and thank you for being a leader in this space and and a female leader.

I know we haven't we didn't you know have to have you back on the show we didn't really have a chance to talk about that too a lot of guys I can talk to you forever I think I know Amber we gotta keep yeah yeah yeah well thank you Amber yeah thank you and um did you I'm sorry now I'm like not being like I know what it's like to have those you know as you called it a dark moment of the soul and I know what it's like to have those doubts at times it's like am I moving the needle am I making the difference that I'm committed to make and so thank you I just want to thank you on behalf of all of us for being the kind of leader kind of woman and human being who just keeps moving forward um in the face of that doubt and doesn't allow that to to to stop you from creating a world where you know as you say all of us and our future generations get to thrive and have fun and and um just really again acknowledge you for doing the work that you had to do on yourself so that you could be the kind of leader that makes that difference in the world. Yeah I'm still I'm still a work in progress I'm not perfect at all. I make a lot of mistakes and um you know one of the things I've felt for many years was like it's all on me. And it reminded me what you were talking about like I have to figure this out like I felt the weight of the world on me. And there were so many nights when I cried for the environment I cried for the damage that has been done on the climate. I grieved deeply grieved like why are human beings like this? Why are we doing this? And I went through that and then I realized you know it's not all on me. There are a lot of us out there there are there are so many amazing people working on sustainability issues. You're working on it I mean there's so many amazing people and we really we really can do it together and we really have made a huge difference and we can keep healing the problems that came over and the you know came over from the past. And I think um it's important that we have our voice and that we speak up and that we say what we what is what is so when it's so that we we share what our perspectives are because if we don't it's not never going to change so um you know the more we can do to find our voice um the better. And also we need to lighten up let's like you know find time to celebrate those moments where we make a little progress. This I tell people all the time like this is not like a brick laying we don't get to like build a house and at the end look at the house or build a hearth and look at the hearth. You know when you're a change agent you're always making progress and so you have to and you never get to really see your work. I mean it could be a hundred years from now when the work I've done will actually culminate in something major but like we have to take those moments to stop and celebrate. So like I would ask people when are you stopping to celebrate and and I'll tell you that my one of my mentors Shar Sundast she gets on me about that. She's like Brena are you celebrating that win Brennan you know are you celebrating that thing so anyway celebration and fun are so important and they really help us.

Oh so good. Thank you so much for being here this just made my day filled up my cup I just love this conversation for anyone for those of you listening you can find out how to connect with Brennan and all of the incredible things that she's up to including getting a copy of our book in her in the show notes. And um just I love you all.

Thank you so much for joining us and have a great week thanks Amber thank you so much for joining us for this week's episode for more information on the show and our extraordinary guests check out what would Amber Do dot com