SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to What Would Amber Do with your host, Amber Howard. Each week, Amber dances in conversation with inspirational leaders to make a difference for what matters most to people. She brings you incredible guests who share their real life experiences of being a leader and what it looks like to live a truly creative life of service to others. And now, here is your host.

SPEAKER_01 0:30

It is the first interview of 2023. We're going into our fourth season of the show, and I am then, and this is another first for me. I'm doing my first interview with someone in person, which is a new experience. I am so excited and honored to have on the show this morning, Peter DeFratis. Peter is a dear friend from back in Canada, and he's someone who's been and made an enormous difference in my life and is currently visiting us in Bali. He's here for another day. And we thought we would just jump on and talk a little bit about his life and his commitments. And this is, he is for me, one of the wisest human beings I know. So I'm really grateful to have this time with you, Peter. And Peter had a distinguished career, everyone, in the fashion industry as a designer, working for brands such as Danye and others. And then at some point, you transitioned to being like a North American leader in the personal development space and leading incredible transformative courses for people in, you know, and how to have more fun playing ease in your life and really um, yeah, courses that have made a huge difference for me and the people that I love. And so, Peter, just thank you so much for taking the time to have this conversation and share yourself with us. That's really great. Thank you. Yeah. And we start always by like, how did you like how did that happen? How do you go from being a fashion designer and traveling all around the world and designing clothes for Danier to then, you know, saying, okay, well, I'm not gonna, you know, and I know you still do some designing and and that's still a part of your creative expression, but you know, your your uh, you know, predominant focus is um, you know, being a leader in the personal training space, personal development space. So how did that what was your journey like to get to today?

SPEAKER_02 2:18

I think that it's um it's like a continuation, right? It's a continuation of what I've always been interested in, and um designing clothes and illustrating and and that whole world was always about creating beauty. And the expression of designing clothes gave an opportunity for others to you know beautify themselves. I think the the similarity between what I'm doing now is for people to create beauty in their life, but not necessarily by what they put on, but more from you know who they are inside. Um I it's kind of how I've related to the transition for myself. It's like I I have a you know developed a skill about you know what it takes to make yourself feel beautiful. And um the work that I've that I've been doing and the work that I've been participating in has has me and I think others really get to the source of their own beauty. And you know, I when I say beauty, I mean it in the whole realm of it all, like, you know, not just about a physical thing, but about really just creating and living like inside of the all of the beauty that life has to offer.

SPEAKER_01 3:47

It's uh, you know, it's interesting to me because I think for myself, and I've shared on the show about my journey around self-worth and self-esteem and falling in love with myself. There's still like uh an aspect of that journey where it's like learning to love my body and accept with my body and be with my body. And even like, you know, we've had a couple conversations here about like I've never had a style of my own because it was like I didn't want to dress a body that I didn't love, or you know, like it was like you just put clothes on to kind of like be presentable and go out. And you know, I didn't have office clothes or professional clothes from when I was like doing that more, you know, working in more professional spaces, suits or whatever, but like never really owning, like like having a relationship to beauty, because like I had like this view of myself that I wasn't that, right? And and so with this time here with you and Bali and like having those conversations and like you know, like saying, Oh, you know, would you help me create a style of my own? Like, is that you know, like we have some of those conversations? But like none of that being able to beautify the outside or or have myself self-expressed that way for me would have been possible if I hadn't done the internal work. Yeah. You know what I mean? And so like I can see that natural progression from, you know, and however you ended up being a fashion designer, whatever that was that wanted to get expressed into the world, as you as I think you went further on your journey and started doing the work on the inside, because I know that was part of it. Yeah, you started participating in those training and development programs for yourself. I can imagine that that becomes then like an evolution of a commitment you had to beauty, but in a different, in a different capacity.

SPEAKER_02 5:32

Yeah, it I I can see just in what you're sharing, is that my, you know, I I saw things that were beautiful. Beauty was always around me. My mother was an incredibly beautiful woman. She appreciated beauty, not just in the way that she put herself together, but in in beauty and in music. And um, you know, the the way that the home was sort of set up. And so I can really see that there was something I I I admired about that in her. She was like my first muse. And um when I was old enough to start creating things, it was natural to create them for her. Um, I think my my mother struggled with the same things you struggled with, and and and I think most people struggle with. But I can see now that it's I it's kind of uh like maybe the step or a step to want to adorn ourselves. And um, you know, when you've done that for so long, you know, you I've figured out ways to make things appear a different way, right? Like to compensate a shape or to accentuate something on a woman's body or on a man's body. When when you've kind of uh done all of that and really get that you know, the most beautiful aspect about a human being has nothing to do with what's on the outside. And one of the things I love about where I am in the discovery of all of this and the work that I'm you know participating in now and that I'm doing now is giving people access to that. And it gives me access to that because of course I have my judgments and my opinions about what's beautiful, what's not. But when I can actually go beyond what my judgments are and find the beauty in someone, something that I don't see beautiful as beautiful, but be able to look again and discover the beauty in it, I think that is such I think that in itself is beautiful. It's the thing that I enjoy about my appreciation for beauty or the or what beauty provides. Like we can find beauty in anything. It didn't always live like that for me.

SPEAKER_01 8:14

I love like one of you're one of my favorite human beings to be around because there's just an energy that you bring to life. But what's been really great, because I don't think we've spent, I mean, we haven't spent nearly this amount of time together ever, and like being together and just watching you be in the world and you know, like and and be with your humanity, Peter, because you're very human, like the rest of us, right? It's like you're also very wise and you're all of these different things, but you're also very human in watching you go through that process of like as we've been on this, you know, holidays together and times where it's like you'll meet someone, and and like this is true for all of us, right? Anyone listening to this conversation, you can locate yourself in this. It's like you watching you meet people, and then you've got all of your like you know, almost like judgments and assessments of the non-beautiful of them, and then like just watching you find just one thing about that person all it takes that that you can locate for yourself or you can you know see the beauty or the humanity in them, and then just the the whole way you are with people, you know, transforms in that moment. And and it's you know, I think one of the biggest things I've gotten out of working with you and training with you is is the practice of it because I used to be someone who was very much, and I still do it. It's like I'm not patient, like I want it now, like I want the transformation now, I want to not be that way. Like if I distinguish something about myself that's like I don't like or I don't want, I'm like, okay, I gotta fix this now or I've got to transform this now. And and you really have taught me through the the work that you do and the way you lead in life is like it's it's all a practice. And it it the more I can just be in life with how things are and and not make any of it wrong, and even my own response to life wrong, the more capacity I have to just you know be at ease and and experience life and find the joy. And and and it really has, you know, I mean, a big part of that shift. I was sharing with my friend Nina last night about, you know, I'm like, I spend lots of time in the pool now. Like when she's coming to visit at the end of February, and I'm like, I go to for massages every week and I spend a lot of time hanging out in the pool. And I and she's like, who are you? Like, what has happened to you? And definitely part of it is relocating here. And because it's just a very, you know, I'd love to hear you share a bit about your experiences of being in Bali. It's a very different energy and environment. But I think, you know, well, one, I wouldn't be here if I hadn't done the Wisdom Unlimited course with you. I know that for sure. I wouldn't be in the relationship that I am with my partner, Peter. Um, like that wouldn't have happened because the things that I got out of training in that course, and and and that, you know, it's weird you talk about training, like, you know, it's like it's like something outside of yourself, but just the ongoing inquiry of how do I become the person that I want, you know, that's authentically my own and and who I want to be in the world. Um just that access to being able to see what I want and and be practiced taking out, but taking away the things that are getting in the way of having the things that I want in life.

SPEAKER_02 11:13

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it just simplifies life a lot. And then you can really, you know, just go in the flow of what you are in, the things that really do matter to you. You know, I love how you just said that because it is the thing that we look at from the very, very beginning of the the course is what really matters to you, not what should matter to you, or what you thought should matter to you, or what used to matter to you, but like right now in the living of your life, what matters to you? What really matters to you that's unique to you. And it's um it's something that you know like ongoingly looking at that question like what really matters to you now, like right now, and the checking in is what keeps us present. I had no idea that coming to Bali would have me really get how much my life in Canada matters to me. Not at all what I anticipated. You know, my life with my husband in our home and what we've created there in our community. I love that it's global, but it's like I I actually had to come all this way to discover that. And it's not like a an unusual story, but the experience of that, you know, that I'm able to be in a whole different part of the world out of something I created five years ago just by saying it to a group of people. And then everything along the way, me getting here since saying that showed up. I think that's extraordinary.

SPEAKER_01 13:12

And the community of people, because like we can say we want things, and I know like you getting here took something, right? Like it was like um surrounding yourself with people who will hold you accountable and keep you present, not even like hold you, like I think that's sometimes that word I know, like as a performance and accountability coach, but like just keep present for you the commitment that you are or the can the things that you say you want. And I think that that's like, you know, perhaps it just some people might think it's semantics. What's the difference between accountability? But I think there is something powerful about that idea of being in community because we forget the things that we want. We forget the things that we said we wanted. And so when you're surrounded by like the community in in wisdom is just such a powerful space to have you be not just present to who like not just present to who I am and who I say I am in the world, but also present to that I said I wanted something and and we're gonna keep returning you to, and and you even in my relationship with Peter, because it hasn't been easy, and you're probably one of the people that I've kind of gone to the most and leaned on the most over the last year and a half, because you know, you go from being single for 13 years to in a relationship and you think it's gonna be like, like you said, I thought I was gonna get up a bali and it'd be a rice patty and the beach would be right there, and I'd just say, right? You know, it's like the fantasies we create, right? We were talking about that this morning. By the way, anyone listening to this conversation, this is just how we talk all the time. So it's like you're we're just letting you in in a little bit of like how we would normally be hanging out with each other. But like there was a real fantasy. I had done a lot of work on myself, and I thought that work would translate into a nice, easy relationship where it would be like roses and everything would be great. And then I got into it, and it's like, oh crap, like all of that past that you can't really work out until you're in a relationship. Because when you're single, the past isn't really there in the same way, like was there. And and and I you always would say to me, I'm gonna keep returning you to Peter, you know, and and you didn't say even until you tell me you don't want that, you just would say, I'm gonna keep returning you to Peter. Yeah, and in and that reminded me, you know, it wasn't about Peter specifically, I think, at all. I mean, it's the possibility of Peter, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:28

It's the possibility of you and your relationship with each other. So, you know, I'm for the relationship you're creating, and you both come with what you come with. And inside of the relationship, you'll create what that is, and I'm for the possibility of that, that relationship.

SPEAKER_01 15:53

Yeah, and without that, I don't think I'd still like well, I I I'm positive I wouldn't still be in this relationship because like my old pattern would just be like, oh, it's uncomfortable, I don't like it, I'm out, you know, it's easier to be on my own, and that's what I did for 13 years.

SPEAKER_02 16:06

So I'm you know, I'm very grateful, like so many things about our relationship, and you know, especially that I think the thing that I love about this community, and one of the reasons why I am a wisdom course leader, and and one of the reasons why you know landmark is important to me is because landmark creates communities of people who are for one another. And you know, we're for people's dreams, we're for people growing and developing and being, you know, what you know, fulfilling on what they want, we're for people's integrity. You know, if they say they want something, we're for that. And uh and uh to be that kind of human being for another, uh I think is one of the greatest things that we can be in life, and that we can bring that to all kinds of communities to really be for that other for a community.

SPEAKER_01 17:07

One of the things that is unique in my experience in personal development as someone who participates and also leads this kind of training is to the wisdom course, is like the use of inquiry. And I I I consider myself a philosopher at heart. I love philosophy, but you know, I've never really participated in training programs where really the the core of the program is like really looking and inquiring and listening versus like a lot of like, no, you must do this and telling, and you know, these are the steps to take. And I remember many times, you know, you get you would get moved when you were leaving the core, you know, the weekends that we had and and you just did now. And I got like, there's something very beautiful about the fact you get moved by people getting connected to what matters to them. And it, you know, oftentimes it's about the result in training, right? It's like, oh, did you, you know, did you cause this or did you cause that? Did you get the money in? Or but because I think what I just saw is that when people get connected to what matters to them, the results just come. They don't have to be forced. They don't, you don't have to sit on people. When people are really profoundly connected to their commitments, then they want to be in action as a function of like you know, that commitment being expressed in the world. And and it's something very beautiful about you as a human being, Peter, that that matters to you so much that when people get connected to what matters to them, you're you're moved to tears by that. And I watch it like not just in the weekends, on the morning calls that you lead, you know, back in Canada. Um yeah, I think that's something very special about you.

SPEAKER_02 18:47

What I hear in what you're saying is um there's a there's a uh there's a sort of a moment or uh uh knowing or a connecting with another human being when I can experience their um like giving up something or letting go of something. And it's like in that moment, they're just out here with me. And it's like that's so extraordinary because it's like we're here together in this moment and completely connected, and nothing else matters other than what's happening here right now. Like it's happening right now.

SPEAKER_03 19:39

It is, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:41

And you know, so to I get moved by that because it's like it's like I'm out of the container that is me with all my thoughts and all my opinions. I get this moment to be out here without all of that stuff, without nothing holding me back. And then you come out, and here we are out here. I don't know that anyone else can see it, but it's in the in-between, it's in what's not being said as I'm explaining it, it's not that. But you know, it's it's it's palpable.

SPEAKER_01 20:21

Yeah. You don't need to, I you know, my experience, but you don't even need to see it to experience the energy of it, right? When two people are just with one another, yeah. And and you know, I mean, I think we've experienced time slips away, it's just kind of like, you know, as you said, nothing else matters. And I think that as human beings, we need that. Yeah, so much of our lives, so much of our lives has like been constructed, created by ourselves and by those around us, and you know, just the systems that we live in to keep us distracted and not focused on, you know, the thing that I think we need as human beings the most, which is just that really being connected with another person and being seen, beginning and and being able to be authentic, like be seek for our authentic self, right? The and and and in all of it, right? Like one of the things that you you teach us and talk a lot about is you know, just being able to be with all of it in life. And um, you know, I was you people listening to this conversation, I was kind of talking with Peter and working through something about my relationship this week. And you know, you're just so great at asking questions, right? That kind of bring up a, you know, like it's and it's never even like that you have an answer to the question. You know, you're just like, you know, in being that connected with someone. There's like, look over here. What about that? Yeah, it's like being that connected with someone. It's like you can lit you listen for, and I've experienced this myself like you can listen for the question that's going to move something forward, right? Even if you don't know the answer to that question, it's like, what's the inquiry? That we could be in that would actually like forward something for me, for you, for others. And um when you know, one of the greatest gifts I've gotten in my relationship with my partner, Peter, my romantic partner, Peter, because you're my partner, Peter, too. Uh gets a little confusing around here, everyone with the Peters. But, you know, my romantic partner, Peter, is this capacity to have all of myself be seen. Because I used to, you know, we talked about this on the trip. Like I really perceived myself to be a good person. And beyond that, really wanted the whole world to view me as a good person. Like, and and but when you can show up with another human being in all of the parts of yourself, the stuff that is ugly or doesn't work, or when you're jerky and know that you can still be loved and have connection, that is such a powerfully transformational experience.

SPEAKER_02 22:53

It is, and and it doesn't have to be limited to our romantic partner. Right. And and I think the I what I like about what I'm discovering now, or what I'm one of the things that I know now is the more that I'm able to let myself be seen, the freer I am. There's nothing really to hide. And um, and then I discover liking myself through the eyes of many more people. And oftentimes those things that I think, oh, I shouldn't let them see, or this is this is not the thing, you know, this isn't a good thing. It's never the case. I'm always wrong. And that's the thing I'm really enjoying is being wrong about things I thought I was so right about, especially about myself. It's kind of uh exhale, like, oh, I don't have to worry about that anymore.

SPEAKER_01 23:59

It's like the illusion of shame, right? And I say the illusion of it because like we really live like it's real, but like shame would tell us that there are parts of ourselves that if known or seen by another would make us unworthy of in and not, you know, not lovable, not worthy of connection and belonging. But I I think you're right, and I experience this as well. The more I can share those parts of myself, it's like other like that exhale that because that because we're all like that. We we all have parts of ourselves that you know we don't pay our taxes, we you know, we get parking tickets, we yell at our kids, we you know, we you know cut, get irritated, we get irritated with others, like all of that, like none of us, that's part of being human, but and so when I can be authentic about that and real about that with people and say, yeah, you know, I'm not I'm not a good person, not like I'm a bad person, like not even in that conversation. I'm just a human being. And there, there's all of these aspects to who I am, and I do things that work and I do things that really don't work. And I'm still like I'm still incredible and extraordinary and worthy of love and connection and belonging. It's like there's this freedom that gets created over there with the other person as well, I think for them to really feel oh, it's okay for me not to be perfect, it's okay for me not, it's okay for me to have you know things that don't work about me and I can still be loved, like that's that's an incredible kind of permission.

SPEAKER_02 25:34

Yes, yeah, yes, it's uh it's really allowing another to be with us.

SPEAKER_01 25:50

So we've talked a little bit about like you know, you're getting ready to leave tomorrow. I'm very sad about that. I'm gonna miss you to come back to Canada and visit in the warmer months and hang out on the boat with you and Bob. And but like, what are you taking away, you know, from this time here?

SPEAKER_02 26:04

And you know, I know you said that your home and you know, your life in Canada and it really matters to you, but I think the thing that I what I saw this morning, and I we touched on it a little bit, is um this fantasy that we create. You know, we create a fantasy about what something will be like or how I will be while I'm in that place, and then when we get there, it's not quite that. I think it's so extraordinary that we can create that fantasy. I think that is what pulls us forward, right? That the the vision of that or the dream of that is what really pulls us forward, and then all of the growth happens in the being able to be with how it really is. You know, it's like I think it's great that my mind created how I would be here in Bali and what it would be like and the things I would do. And then the reality was what it was, extraordinary in and of itself, but the letting go of the fantasy to be with what really is, I think I'm taking that away. And I don't yet know what that discovery, what that new being, how that will play itself out in Toronto. Um, but it's not going to be the same me. Can't be. I'm not the same. Not with all of the incredible foods that I've tasted, with all of the you know, excitement of being, you know, on the back of the motor or the moped or the motorcycle with you and and the speed and the being outside and everything. Like I'm and and you know, like in a week from now, I'll be thinking about oh, I was there with Amber and everybody in Bali, and now I'm here. Like that is so extraordinary that we have that. Like that we have a memory and that we have the the ability to create how it could be the vision there's something extraordinary about that.

SPEAKER_01 28:37

I love what you I love everything that you just said, but you know, as someone who's part of my job is to help people create that future vision, the fantasy, right? And like work in change management and helping people manage change in their businesses and their lives, it's like that capacity to, you know, it's like, yeah, we're gonna keep creating what we want the future to look like because that's part of being a human being, is to keep creating. And then, you know, but you're right, I like I really see for myself and the other people that the the growth is in that capacity to be with. Like as I keep moving forward and I create the vision, there's what's showing up now. And I think for me, like it this year is all about acceptance and and like training my mind at a new level to really just focus on what it is that I want in terms of the experiences of how I want to experience life, being at ease in life, not making myself and others wrong for you know for how things are showing up and how life is unfolding. And I'm someone who, you know, is reliable to put myself in situations where I'm gonna be challenged because I like to be challenged and I want to grow. And so I keep putting myself in situations and I'm gonna keep doing it because it's you know, like, um, but I, you know, you said something to me this week is like, yeah, it can be hard, but you don't have to suffer. And that's something really powerful I'm taking away from our time together here is like the suffering is a choice. And and you know, I can either have, you know, there are some gonna be some things about my ongoing journey in life that will be hard and will be challenging, but I have a hundred percent, I have everything to say about whether I suffer through any of it. And I probably will choose to suffer at times.

SPEAKER_02 30:24

Nothing wrong with suffering, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:26

But that, you know, it's like the practice of noticing, right? And bringing my awareness to, oh, this like I'm really suffering here. Do I want to keep suffering or do I want to create something else?

SPEAKER_02 30:36

Yeah, yeah. I the the being in any one place for too long is is a little uncomfortable. Yeah. And so, you know, the opportunity to complete and to create and to create and to complete and to create and to start again and to stop and to slow down and to play with all of it. And you know I think the the looking and the not looking and settling for an answer how to get out of the suffering or any of that, but it's like, okay, but to to be in the inquiry, like you know, what what what do I want now? What matters to me now? Am I done with the suffering? Maybe not. Maybe I am.

SPEAKER_01 31:44

One of the biggest takeaways I had from all of my studies in the wisdom course area at Lamar, you know, inquiry exploration and our partnership is like answers are boring. Like, and I used to be someone who really wanted to like, because it was like, I if I know, if I have the answer, then I have certainty and I have control or the illusion of that, right? Because we never really, I don't think we ever really have those things. And but the answers are really boring. Like once you get an answer, it's like, okay, well, now what? Right. It's like the growth is in the inquiry for me now. It's like the growth is in that constant, the looking and noticing and bringing awareness and asking questions that you know actually um I don't even know the answer to the question, right? Because I've never thought that before, or I've never looked at that in that way before. Um, that is like really where life gets juicy and delicious, I think.

SPEAKER_02 32:42

Well, the answers the answer limits us. Wisdom is the opportunity to be unlimited. So give up the answer and just keep looking, keep exploring, keep in that inquiry. We get stuck with the answer.

SPEAKER_01 33:08

Yes, we really do, because that becomes like the next line, right? Whatever we answer.

SPEAKER_02 33:13

And it'll only fulfill for so long because there'll be something else to inquire into. But to keep inquiring, keep looking, keep exploring, keep developing, keep growing, keep participating. That's I think the beauty of life. It's definitely what led me to where I am. And um, you know, the thing about designing clothing is that it's great. It has a beginning, a middle, and an end. And then there's the next thing to create. But with everything you create, you develop something, a capacity to understand that piece or to work out the problem or the situation in that particular garment. And then you've got more access, more to play with. And so then to take on the next bigger challenge or the next bigger dress or the next bigger project becomes exciting because there's always this room to stretch, to stretch, stretch yourself. I never thought that was the beauty of life, but I've I've really come to love that I am someone committed to growing and developing myself for the rest of my life. I don't necessarily have to find the answer.

SPEAKER_01 34:46

Yeah, it's kind of like the booby price, right? Like the answer is and I see that now. And and um I'm I'm really grateful for for all of it. Yeah, and and being able to develop that capacity to even be grateful for the things when they don't go the way that I want them to, or I thought I wanted them to, like to to just lean into um that knowing, not knowing the answer, but like that that sense of confidence, that sense of faith, or you know, that I'm being cared for and that what I need is coming to me, and and that ability to receive in a way that I didn't have before because so much of my life was structured around like control and causing, you know, making things happen, forcing outcomes, um, forcing myself a lot of times, right? So it is like how we wound up being, yeah. Yeah, and it's how our world's structured, right?

SPEAKER_02 35:43

Like if we really look, you know, human beings, yeah. Yeah, you go through that whole process. And and then there's a little part, I think there's a little time where we start to see it. Maybe it's there's undoing of all of that, right? Like a returning to just the wisdom and the wonder of being alive.

SPEAKER_01 36:04

Yeah, I definitely think a lot of you know, whatever we call this journey of personal development, transformation, whatever you want to what I label it, is a journey of unbecoming.

SPEAKER_02 36:13

Yeah, back to nothing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:16

Peter, I love you so much. I'm so grateful. Thank you. I mean, I know having been taking the trip to Bali a few times now, I know that it takes something to get here. Like it really does. It's a long flight, it's a lot of flights, it's like new airports, it's you know, I mean, even before you stepped foot in Bali, I think you'd grown and discovered some things along the journey. And um, you know, I know that coming to Bali has had been something you wanted to do for a long time. And I'm I'm grateful that I was here and helped kind of facilitate making that more easy for you to have that experience. And I I'm not the same human being that I was when you got here and um on December 30th. And um I just I'm so grateful for our partnership and our friendship and the love and just who you are for me and so many. And um, yeah, just thank you for having this conversation and sharing yourself and your commitment with with all of the people listening to this.

SPEAKER_02 37:12

Thank you. Thank you for thank you for just welcoming and loving me.

SPEAKER_01 37:19

It's an easy thing to love you. For everyone listening to this conversation, thank you so much for joining us. I hope you got as much out of it as I have. And if you're interested in connecting with Peter, you know, to talk about the programs that he leads or the other programs at Landmark, um, you'll be able to have access to his email in the show notes. And um, yeah, just go out there and inquire. You know, really look this week. What could you inquire into that would um give you access to moving something in your life forward?

SPEAKER_02 37:48

How do you say goodbye in Belinese?

SPEAKER_01 37:52

A couple of different ways. You can say Salamat Jalan or you can say dada, typically more informal dada. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:59

Yeah. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 38:02

Goodbye, everyone. Love you. Talk to you next week.

SPEAKER_00 38:05

Thank you so much for joining us for this week's episode. For more information on the show and our extraordinary guests, check out what wouldamberdo.com.