SPEAKER_00 0:47

George has also taught at the University of Toronto and a tool like Executive Education Center. And George left a 20-year corporate career, 20 more than 20-year corporate career, to pursue his passion of helping managers become leaders, doing less, accomplishing more, and making a difference. And if that wasn't enough, George is a soon-to-be published author of his book on the topic of leadership and really how to accomplish his passion. And really, I think it's more of a passion, more than a passion, it's a mission in life for you, George. So George, just thank you so much for being here with us this morning.

SPEAKER_02 1:25

Well, thank you for having me, Amber. Such a pleasure to be here. And by the way, thank you for that introduction. I mean, I really want to meet this guy.

SPEAKER_00 1:32

People often say, Oh, we should hire you to do our PR. Wow. It's uh so good. We often don't. My experience with human beings is we don't really get who we are until it's spoken by someone else, you know, and then it's like, wow, like, you know, and you are you are George, you've accomplished a lot. You've made a difference for so many and probably incalculable amount of people in your career. And uh I'm grateful for our friendship and having gotten to know you and just uh grateful to have this time with you this morning to talk about you and what you're up to and and what you're committed to for people.

SPEAKER_02 2:09

Oh, I'm so looking forward to it.

SPEAKER_00 2:11

Yeah, really great. So why don't you kind of walk us through what, you know, 20 plus years, very successful career, you know, lots of recognition and and all of that. And then you were just like, nope, okay, time to go be an entrepreneur and start from scratch and create my own thing in the world. What what was the what was the catalyst for that? What what caused you to say, no, it's time to go and do something new?

SPEAKER_02 2:36

Um great way to get us started. Thank you, Amber. The after spending 20 years, and I do mean spending, because I put in time, energy, effort, and intelligence and got out of it what the corporate world gave me. Economic rewards in the form of compensation and bonuses, things of that nature, greater responsibilities, uh uh relocations to other parts of the country, dealing with other types of jobs, challenges, excitement. Um, and and but it was mostly spending, spending time and less about investing time. I learned a lot along the journey, but I didn't get the kind of fulfillment that I didn't really know I was missing, quite honestly, until I left the world of corporate some 20 years ago. The transition was not a difficult one at all. What triggered it was an appreciation for the fact that the love had fallen out of work. Not the work itself, which I still appreciated doing, the challenge that came with managing the complex nature of the business of work. But just I'd fallen out of love with just being there, the ch it was just not stimulating anymore. It was more burden and challenge, it was more issues and fix this and deal with that, and less about progress, innovation, growth, and development. The authentic in people was missing. It was just get it done, deliver the numbers. Great, we made the month, let's do it again next month. And then I went looking for something else.

SPEAKER_00 4:18

I went looking for something else. I love that. And I and it's an interesting idea. We'll talk a little bit later because you and I have this ongoing conversation that we have about like dirty words and love and fear and things we don't aren't supposed to talk about in the business world. But it's interesting to me that you put it in terms of like I fell out of love with my corporate career, because I don't think we don't talk about it in terms of like that. We we talk about falling out of love with a romantic partner, but like, you know, in a sense, love is love. And and absolutely, I think lots of people have fallen out of love with their corporate careers or even their journey of it, like whatever it is, right? People fall out of love with things, and just like romantic relationships, we either stay and you know force it and try and make it work, or you know, we'll and and just live with the condition of being unsatisfied and unhappy, or we, you know, we go do something else, right? And I love that you also when you talk about it, it's like you didn't necessarily know 100% at the time what that something else, but you you you started an inquiry into like what could the something else look like. And I think that's really beautiful. I acknowledge you for that.

SPEAKER_02 5:36

Well, thank you. Thank you, Amber. It was it was an interesting stage of my life. It would have happened, I would have been um, I want to say early 40s. And it was it was fraught with risk. Remember now, uh, you know, early 40s, I'd already had 20 years of experience, which means I had a pile of equity built up and some skill sets and some expertise uh within that world of corporate and consumer package goods in particular. And I was about to leave all of that. I had a mortgage that could choke an elephant, uh, and three little children uh that, you know, that are my dependents as well as my my at the time, as well as my wife, who was an at-home mom. And so there was a considerable amount of economic risk and certainly career risk associated with making a shift in that at that point in time. Uh, but I don't think it was like courage that it equipped me to do that as much as it was as as it was an understanding that what I was leaving behind was no longer tenable. It was just no longer viable to me. It just was not fulfilling. Um, I appreciated the technical aspects of the work, but I'd fallen out of love with it. It was, you know, if I could be crass about it, it it was like being in a in a relationship with another human being where the love has fallen out, but the sex is still there. Like it's it's just, you know, the physical aspects alone are just not satisfactory to a truly fulfilling relationship with another human being. And so the same thing was taking place in a work world. I don't think I've ever quite thought of it that way until I just think that's great.

SPEAKER_00 7:08

I love it.

SPEAKER_02 7:10

You know, but but as I as I explore in my own mind now, based on your questions, uh, that's what was taking place. So there was there was considerable risk, but I knew that it was untenable. It was not sustainable what I was leaving behind. That's not what I wanted. And I went out looking for other things. And you know what was really interesting? I found that when I started looking at up at uh career opportunities or business or jobs that were in other fields or other professions, people were just like, no, you don't have a skill set, you don't have you didn't come from our industry, you didn't come from this function, that you're a you go away. We don't want you. And it was this narrow vision, and it just frustrated me to death. Um and then eventually somebody said in the pharmaceutical industry of all places, a client uh who became a client, uh a gentleman who was vice president of uh of a division at the time was looking to hire me, said to me, I'm sorry, but I can't hire you because internally we've just posted a somebody into the role, and so the job's gone away, it's no longer available. So I can't hire you, George. But we really like you. Would you help us anyway? Can we hire you like as a consultant? And I said, sure. I mean, I'm unemployed at this point because I'd left. I said, sure, absolutely. So he hired me as a consultant, loved the work. The next thing I knew, I was doing consulting work for other people within his organization, and six months later, I knew what I had found. And I had found a passion in pursuing helping others deal with their work challenges in a way they couldn't on their own. And that was the beginning of the journey that's gotten me to here.

SPEAKER_00 8:52

That's really beautiful. So let's talk about that. So do less accomplish more, make a difference. Like what is that, right? This is your core belief, it's one of your core beliefs, it's it's your mantra, it's your mission, it's what you're out to to help people in the corporate world, especially in the you know, the middle management layer, understand. Talk to talk to me about what is that all about.

SPEAKER_02 9:19

Yeah, no, absolutely. Thank you for asking. I'm busy. Oh, gee, there's a shocker. How are you? Busy. So what's going on? Busy. I'm so fed up with busy, it's ridiculous. Busy is a badge of honor. If I'm busy, that's great. If I'm busier, that's better. And if I'm busiest, that's best. Well, that's just a bunch of useless V-words. What's really going on is we are abdicating our right to choose what to do, how to invest, spend our time, and how to produce the greatest outcomes, whether that be human outcomes or professional outcomes, in our work and in our lives. We're busy. We abandon our families, we leave the things that are important in our lives unlooked after because we're busy. What a convenient excuse for not doing the things that are truly meaningful to us. And so doing, which is what busy is, right? I'm doing stuff. There's a lot on my plate, and I'm just doing a lot of doing. Just is gets the hair on the back of my neck standing up whenever I even think about it. We live by a belief system, and our belief system, at least in the world of work, is do more with less. Well, I want to take that belief and throw it right out the window. Throw it completely out the window. None of this do more with less. How about do less but accomplish more? How about clinging to that belief and making that some of the guiding principles by which we operate? Why must we be obliged to live in a world of it's just the way it is? We are creatures of comfort where we like our comfort zone and are resisting change. And we resist change because, well, it's just the way it is. At least in the work world, this is the way it is. There are hierarchies. My boss tells me what to do. I can't say no. I've got to hit my numbers, I've got to do things this way. I can't initiate change from my level because I'm not the CEO. All these beliefs hold us back as professional human beings. I gotta wait till I become a CEO before I can make anything truly happen and make a difference in this organization. Like, where's the logic in that, Amber? Where is the reality in that? Is it any wonder why young people check out quickly in a career because they realize, well, you mean I gotta wait another 20 years before I get to a level where I can actually make a difference? Like, what's that all about? So I want them to not be there, and that's why I'm here.

SPEAKER_00 12:01

There's a whole world to unpack in what you just said. And I'm present to like the way things are is the way that there are, and and when we like what that actually looks like and what that means. And I think most corporations are very hierarchical in nature, and that's kind of the way the corporate world, that's like the agreement that we have around quote, you know, here and there you find some companies who don't operate that way. But generally speaking, there's like some kind of executive leader, CEO, you know, the ultimate boss, and then a leader of bosses under them, or you know, senior leadership team, and and then directors and managers, and then front, you know, frontline workers, whatever that, you know, single, well, what's my one of my favorite terms for it? Cole contributors. We have like there's this new book on language and how we use language. It's quite interesting. Uh, and I can't remember the title of it right now, it's just gone out of my head. Oh, it's called Double Speak. I don't know if you've ever read it. It was written many, many years ago.

SPEAKER_02 13:05

Familiar with the book, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 13:07

Yeah, so this idea that we, you know, obfuscate through language, but so corporations are traditionally hierarchical in nature. And I think there is this idea that we're when we become an employee of a company, we are giving over of ourselves to the vision mission values, to the leadership, that our gifts and talents and skills will be used in to forge the agenda and then the convention of that entity. And in exchange for that, we will get whatever compensation, financial compensation that we've agreed to get. And you know, as time's gone by, it's become more and more apparent that it's more than just money. People want to feel satisfied and fulfilled, people want to feel like they're making a difference, so like companies have created employee engagement programs and tried to look at all of these different factors. How do you create a great, you know, some do it better than others? But it it is very much, I think part of what drives that busyness that you're talking about is the sense that, well, we gave ourselves over to this thing. This is the way it's supposed to be, right? I belong to this corporation. And so, you know, so therefore, if busy is what's called for, I gotta do busy. I gotta do busy. And like, and that's just part of the agreement of what it is to be an employee of a company. And and it's I love that you're challenging that and saying, well, who does that actually serve? Because it's like, you know, and I I don't have the stats offhand, but I know that the numbers are not great of people who are, you know, their level of happiness and productivity. And so I don't know that busy serving anyone.

SPEAKER_02 14:54

Well, it's it's an interesting way you put it right there because the the stats are very compelling. I mean, according to Gallup research, two-thirds of employees in the United States, and I think the survey goes beyond the US, two-thirds of employees are either disengaged or actively disengaged. By the way, actively disengaged means sabotaging others or my company. Like, you know, are you wondering why your company's not doing so well? Well, probably because two-thirds of your employees aren't even aren't even there. They're disengaged. According to the American Institute of Stress, 25% of people, roughly one quarter of the employees in the employee workforce, are um are suffering from burnout or have suffered from burnout. Eight out of ten have physical or psychological symptoms, and one in five have been driven to tears at work. Like, think about this one for a second. If you're an employer and you post a job that says, I'm looking for such and such a person to fill this particular job, these are the requirements of the candidate, and and the successful candidate when they join this organization should be expect should expect that they will have a one in five chance of being driven to tears. Like, how I do you expect a lineup of people who are going to be a blind for that job?

SPEAKER_00 16:02

I've been driven to tears at work, for sure. Well, and I'm the one in five.

SPEAKER_02 16:08

And and you're not unique because one in five actually experience that. And so this is what ends up happening. We get caught in this world of this is what's expected of me because this is the way it is, and I can't change it because. My argument is that history says that isn't the way it can be. History has shown us at least three very prevalent examples of very ugly the way it is that has transformed into something else. And the three examples are monarchy. Back in the uh 17th, 18th century, sorry, the French Revolution. Along the way, I mean, monarchs and monarchies, kings and queens, they existed all over the planet. Every country, that was the essential form of government, was a monarchy. But in France, in particular, the French Revolution showed up because they had reached a stage where they said, we're not prepared to take it the way it is anymore. It's just not going to happen. Along the way, King Louis XVI lost his head, you know, and transformed the world at large from what was a system of sovereign rule to a system of democratic rule or alternative form of governments, whether that be communist or socialist or something like that. But sovereign rule went away. But for thousands and thousands and thousands of years before that, there were monarchs, and it was just the way it is. That's one example. How about another example? Slavery. Well, for thousands and thousands and thousands of years, certain peoples enslaved other peoples. It was kind of just the way it was. But 150 years ago, the U.S. abolished slavery. The same thing happened in most other countries in the world, uh, and emancipation took place. Why? Because just the way it is was no longer gonna cut it. Women's rights a hundred years ago, the UK, the US, and Canada all accepted uh uh and gave women the right to vote. And it has been a transitional process since then, but at that moment in time, women earned the right to vote. Well, before then, and for thousands and thousands and thousands of years, women didn't have the right to vote. They didn't even have rights. In fact, the worst thing that could happen to a woman was to become a widowed uh widow with uh young dependent children because she had no rights, couldn't own land, and therefore had no way of providing for herself and her family. So just the way it is, there are plenty of examples of us being able to change it. We in the world of work have an opportunity ahead of us to do just that, to actually face up to it and say, we can change this. It doesn't have to be this way. We can improve the work environment so that this is a pleasure to go in to work on a Monday morning. When I get up in the morning, when I say to people, by the way, Monday is my second favorite day of the week, and they go, What? What's the matter with you? Because Monday's the day that has the most amount of work associated with it. It's got the longest to-do list, it's got comes with all the things that need fixing this week and the meetings that need to be planned for. I got a knot in my stomach on Sunday night, just getting ready for Monday is what people say to me. It doesn't have to be that way. Just because of the way it is. No, it doesn't have to be that way. And I'm prepared to make a change. I'm prepared to and want to change the way what the world thinks about work. And it's all about how we interact with each other. So doing less, accomplishing more, and making a difference isn't about new processes and new technology. No, it's about changing a belief system and applying simple skills in the way we work and collaborate together so that we in fact do less, accomplish more, and make a difference.

SPEAKER_00 19:57

So great. So can you talk about one of those skills, George? Like what's a simple thing? And I know you you talk about simplicity, right? And and the importance of like simplifying complex ideas. And so, what's a simple thing that people can do to do less accomplish more and or a belief or you know, one of your kind of something that you can offer people that would support in this way?

SPEAKER_02 20:26

Oh, for sure. Yeah. So uh here's one in particular where um, and I'll share this in a form of a story where um a terrible thing happens to people on their way to work, and especially to managers on their way to work. Now, whether work happens to be somewhere out there, or whether work is my office in the basement, something terrible happens. You know, um what happens is, you know, the person gets up in the morning and you know, grooms and puts on some clean clothes and shaves if he's a guy and puts on makeup as a woman, whatever, and it goes to work. And um and a horrible thing happens because as soon as we enter our workplace, a big rubber stamp descends from the ceiling and smacks us on the forehead, and it says manager on my forehead. And immediately at that moment, I transform from a caring, authentic, real human being who has compassion and love for the other person into a manager. Managers go to work to manage stuff. People go to work, employees go to work to do stuff. Why? Because that's my duties. I do my duties to do stuff. Leaders go to work to be the human to be human beings. And so there's a belief shift right there. It says, look, I don't have to be a manager, I can be a human being at work. Managers go in and forget about how to acknowledge people, forget how to recognize people, forget how to appreciate people as people. But we view them when we put on the mantle of manager. them in the light of a human resource. And what's a resource? Something to get the most value out of. Like that's a pretty scary concept. So let me get this right. For 20 years as an employee, my boss's job was to get the most out of me. And I'm supposed to feel okay with that. Now that's just an example of a belief shift that I promote through the course of this whole transformative process. That's just one of many. And here's a skill just by way of example. Here's a skill. As a mom yourself and as a parent, those of us who have who are listening to the podcast and and either have children or had young children at one point or perhaps at some point might have been a child ourselves. You know, I mean I I remember once I was I used to be a child.

SPEAKER_00 22:54

A long time ago some time ago in the past we all were yes at some point.

SPEAKER_02 22:59

And um ultimately when your child comes home and he or she is really excited like when your daughter comes home she's really excited because she made a new friend or she got a gold star on a report or something like that, right? When she was little, wouldn't you celebrate with her? Wouldn't you like high five or find some other way to acknowledge and root the moment to anchor the moment in a form of celebration and appreciation of something meaningful that's been accomplished. It's a wonderful way of bonding with the ones we love and it's a wonderful way of repeating behaviors that have led to the success that was demonstrated in the first place whether it helps getting a new friend or getting a gold star in a report. So why do we leave all of that and save it just for our families? Why don't we spread a little bit of that love, a little bit of that bonding a little bit of that compassion with the people that we work with when they score a win they walk into your workspace and they say hey listen I got the numbers back and we really rocked it last month. You know what we say? We go great let's do it again. And then we continue. But we don't celebrate we don't acknowledge we don't do any of those things. We forget to be human beings. At home with our daughters or our sons when they cry because they had an accident because their friend was rude to them because they didn't make the team whatever the reasons that have left them saddened do we not weep with them? Do we not embrace them? Do we not support them? Do we not put our arm around them figuratively and literally well why aren't we doing that with the people at work?

SPEAKER_00 24:43

Why do we look at them and say I know you're hurting but I don't want to talk about that I just want to talk about the fact I need the report by 10 a.m see you're pointing to and I and I love where this conversation is going because that's what we do on the show. We just dance in conversation what to what I would call the compartmentalization of like our humanity right it's just like you know I'm I'm this one way at home and then I'm this other way in you know and there's this like distinction that we make between the professional and we even do it in development. It's like personal and professional development. It's like well you know what I what about like I'm a whole human being and and you know really how we do one thing is how we do anything. But when we step inside inside of the this workspace, this corporate space um and it's like I have to put a mask on and I can't be this authentically myself because there are these rules of how things are done or how it is, right? Which you point towards there's this way business is what's professional what's you know what's appropriate I love that word what's appropriate and you know there are things that we don't talk about we don't do and you know even this notion that it's not personal it's business. Well you know human beings aren't compartmentalized like that like in reality like our our spirit our soul our heart are not compartmentalized. And when someone does an action and I and I love this I like like I said I've been saying this for years like we wonder what happens with our children. You know we sit around the dining room table to talk about our days and the kids are caring about school and something that happened on the playground and you know like the someone got bullied or someone you know and then mom and dad are sharing this like ethics about how to be and these values about you know being friendly and like oh whatever it is, whatever the value system is. And then mom or dad starts talking about their day and how they laid off 100 people because of the bottom line. And our kids sit there and go, well you just told me to go into the playground and you know take care of the other kids and be a good play nice with the other kids and here you're talking about laying off 100 people for for the bottom line. And look I'm not like I'm not speaking here I understand that businesses have to make money and I understand all of that but there's like a real dehumanizing that happens within corporations and and within that culture that that I think really diminishes all of that and and does not like and I love what you say George it doesn't have to be that way. So you know and the quality of the questions gives the quality of our life so well how could it be what else is available that would still have people be able to create abundance financially as well as you know honor the whole human being and have people really show up and and bring their best version of themselves not have to hide behind these masks and like like we have it all together and that everything's okay. And that was I mean that was me. Like I've shared this story with you and I know that that you laugh but you know like when I you know when I showed up to work at the airport with a walking IV because if if it had walking you know I even want to work with walking pneumonia because if it had walking in the title then I could still work and that like as crazy as that seems to me now at the time that I had a commitment I'd given my word I had projects there was work to be done you know it didn't even matter and I had paid sick time. It's not like I couldn't have stayed home sick but it was like there was always some justification for like for martyring myself on the altar of like the you know what I perceived was expected of me. Right.

SPEAKER_02 28:48

Oh totally totally and and it's a great example by the way of of a belief system that says this is acceptable this is the way it's supposed to be I I'm alive and breathing and I'm allowed to walk therefore I can go to work even though I'm not by anybody's standards you know capable of or going to be playing at my best you know you made an interesting comment earlier about it's not it's not personal it's business it's a great it's a great reference point because it's an easy sentence to say it's not personal it's just business. So what does that mean? Does that mean in business that we can throw away the rule book about ethics and and morality is that what that means or does it mean that profit trumps everything in the world of business even Adam Smith when he well he wrote a wealth of nations who talked about the the purpose of business is to make a profit put that in the context of a moral world where we did the right things where we supported other people we did it for the best benefit of the country and the community that's why a wealth of nations was a wealth of nations and it wasn't talking just profit which is the economic part of wealth but in fact the profit of a society as a whole and so the moral side of it is the part that's missing because we have warped it we have conceived this this isolated it's all about the numbers world and of course you know publicly traded companies the stock market the economic world at large has created a machine where that's what that's what you get rewarded for. Even employee recognition programs which you commented on earlier is a great example of a bad idea because it's it's a great example of a bad idea because or a bad solution because you know why are we doing employee recognition programs? Oh because people are complaining they're not being recognized and they're not being appreciated and they're not happy here or some combination of those types of things right and so what does mat what what does management do? So gee we better throw some employee recognition programs at them so that they feel recognized. Well you know people aren't stupid people know that that's just management's way of knee-jerk reacting the fact that they said they weren't happy it's it wasn't authentic it's not it's just a manager's way of trying to fix a thing instead of being truly appreciative and this is the distinction I'm making in in within the context of do do less and accomplish more is don't go ahead and do more by creating an employee recognition program. Do less and you know what the less includes just appreciate the other person. Go over to them and say by the way I noticed that you got that report in on time and I know yesterday you were concerned that you might not be able to thank you that's it like literally that's it. Just recognize and appreciate the person who's there.

SPEAKER_00 31:40

I mean that's what we want don't we we want to be appreciated we want to belong and feel like we belong and we're appreciated for being here acknowledging goes a long way celebration with the other party comes a lot goes a long way weeping with the other party literally goes a long way to connecting with people and creating a workplace where the results are extraordinary and it's all because we did less I love these conversations I get to have with people because like I grow inside of the conversation too and I just like what I just discovered in and what you were saying George in in this conversation that we've been having this morning is like the fact that love connection and you know because that's my that's my trick that's my deal right like love connection and belonging are fundamental to wellbeing and success. Like the fact that like because it's not just about recognition it's about genuine acknowledgement like it's and and so you can't have that when love connection and belonging are opposite right so it's like we we we we run these reports someone comes along someone wants to create a new business they write a white paper and they say oh look there's this problem with corporate you know the corporate corporate culture people don't feel appreciated. And instead of actually getting at the root right and like for my world as a business analyst you always want to get at the root to the root cause like what's actually at the source of right so an employee recognition program is all well and good but if it's not actually getting at the source if it's not actually getting to the root of what's causing people to be dissatisfied and unhappy and disengaged. And by the way for those people listening that has nothing to do with what they call hygiene factors like your work hours, how much money you get paid, right? Like any of those things that that that actually has in the absence of proper hygiene like employee hygiene will you know will prevent someone from being engaged but that's not what disengages people. What disengages people is not feeling fulfilled not feeling appreciated not feeling like they're actually making a difference like that's what actually disengages people and you can't have true engagement in the absence of love connection and belonging and so now we have a problem because we've created corporate culture to be such that talking about love expressing love being authentically connected is actually inappropriate in the business setting. So then how how do you how do you slap an employee engagement program on this and try and solve this when we're not even allowed to we're not allowed to express our fear or that we're afraid of failing or that we don't know how to do something or that we're you know that we've we're we're experiencing bullying or you know behavior that causes us to cry in the workplace. We can't you know and and even like I had this amazing conversation with Chris last night about like performance and how our our ideas around performance just cause shame like performance leads to shame because it's like the next thing and the next thing and the next thing and then and and you're always on this hamster wheel of like performing and achieving the next thing without as you like so beautifully put earlier even celebrating our accomplishments and what we do do.

SPEAKER_02 35:08

Well you you're so you're so spot on the mark on this one. You know I when I coach clients um which is amongst my current sort of preoccupations as a as as a professional as a certified coach you know when I coach clients who are wrapped up in their world of performance you know I got to achieve this I got to finish all my tasks I got to get to the next level I've got to deliver the numbers I've got to follow up on all these emails and all the stuff that's part of the work life that they've created for themselves they they you know I ask them so what are you what are you trying to prove and the reaction generally is huh let me repeat what are you trying to prove well I got I gotta do all this stuff do you really so what are you trying what do you what are you prepared to sacrifice to do all this stuff but more importantly what are you trying to prove by doing all this stuff and often the first reaction from a client is defensiveness. You know why? Because I've just stamped on a belief that they have to get it all done that they have to do everything and they have to do it perfectly and they have to do it on demand. By the way that's the world of work and that's the world that we are supposed to be working in that's what we've been told within the economic model of the hierarchy of work that we live in. And I'm saying why why bother don't do it like why do you why do you what are you trying to prove so I'm just asking people to slow down take a step back and say what am I what am I really doing here? What am I trying to accomplish what have I got to prove by constantly you know getting to that next level by constantly oh well I'm a pleaser what does that even mean well you know I'm a I I like to please people when we unpack that you know what we discover they're not a pleaser at all they're just a uh they're someone who doesn't wish to displease okay I got it and when we unpack that a little further you know what we discover well the reason why I don't want to displease this person is because it affects me. And so my ego will be bruised if I displease this person. My pride will be hurt my self-esteem will be damaged because I've displeased this other person. I wasn't able to deliver the report on time or you know meet my numbers or whatever it was that I wasn't able to you know I said no oh my gosh I've just pleased pleased this person. My self-esteem is now bruised. Let's talk about your self-esteem we want to talk about people as people not as human resources which is a thing to get the most out of now the world of HR is converting its phraseology from human resources to people and culture okay I hope those are not just words I hope they're real because that's real culture is the way we work live and play together. I get that people are people that's you amber it's me you know skin bones mouth hair nose you know bad breath in my case whatever it's just that's what people are and so if quote human resources is going to live the mantra of people and culture I'm all for it. But if it's just a bunch of words because they sound good then I think we're just we're just trying to you know couch it we're just trying to paint over the problem with some nicer words and make us feel better about what we're really doing.

SPEAKER_00 38:44

It's funny because I've seen the bounce back too though right because I've seen companies shift from H I I even worked in one that like had an HR department and then developed a people and culture department and then bounce back to something and I don't even know what they landed on now. But I think it's it's more of that back to what we were saying a minute ago it's more of that not actually dealing with the root cause the root cause is that there is something fundamentally missing from the corporate world and and that is love and connection and and safe spaces for people to be self-expressed and show up authentically like this notion that like I you know like I I should be able to keep it all together and it doesn't matter that you know this morning I woke up and my kids are sick and the car is not working and and and and I you know I still got to make it into the office and do my job. Oh yeah oh absolutely like I was watch I was like looking on LinkedIn yesterday and there was like um this great great account called the female lead um I'm very proud to be from New Zealand. I think New Zealand's done a lot of things right they're not perfect but you know first country to give women the right to vote our prime minister is you know excellent and they've just approved like they've made it like policy across the whole country that people get bereavement leave for miscarriages. And and you know this is the first country in the world to do that. No other country in the world is is has taken that step and what reading the comments and the commentary on that post and you know I get I fall into the rabbit hole sometimes and I got pull myself out of it because I'm like ah don't like don't go there but it's like astounding at like what that stirred up for people while small businesses aren't going to be able to afford that all this all that and you know the some of the misogyny that comes out in in that conversation and and then like the devolvement to like oh what are you going to give people time off now if they have an abortion like it it's just so interesting where what like nasty comes up sometimes when you talk about transforming the way things are like oh yeah when people feel when you start to to actually have a real conversation about the unworkability in the way things are people's nasty comes out because there's something really threatening um about that.

SPEAKER_02 41:13

And I think that's uh telling you yeah yeah the the the way it is the way I have it the way my world works around me is it may not be perfect but it's comfortable and as soon as some of that some of that is challenged as soon as there's a new law or a new uh like the situation in New Zealand that you just pointed out I think is a brilliant example that will create all sorts of concern because it challenges some concession conventional ways of looking at this. And so we cling to that safety of our comfort zone that familiarity of our comfort zone we don't want to step outside that we're the only species on the planet that resists change. Every other species they like they walk around all the time in change. I mean how many squirrels do you know that use the same spot to sleep every night you know raccoons or you know whatever. I mean it's just it's it's a there's these are different species obviously but they deal with change and uncertainty every single moment of their waking lives we're the only species who wants to control everything around us. What the heck's the matter with us and of course we realize that we can't really control it because we can control very very in fact we can barely control our own emotions and the way we feel about or hear what other people are saying to us. You know it's it's it's interesting as you you talk about this concept of change and the resistance to us you know when when I when I face uh situations in workplaces where people say to me you know I need to my people are unhappy and they want more support what does that mean? Am I supposed to like say yes to everything they want am I supposed to say yes to each one of their recommendations even though a recommendation may not make any good practical business sense? And so what do you think it means? Because the words the word support is determined or is interpreted by different people to mean different things. But I like what you said about it which is about love and connection like if you love and connect that employee that person that says I need your support boss like I really need your support I don't feel I'm getting it what does that mean if I gave you a little bit of love and connection that would you would find a way to be supportive in love and connection comes support that might include tough love where we take the employee and say listen I'm hearing you say and I do it all the time as a coach I'm hearing you say these things but I'm not seeing I'm I'm seeing your mouth move but I'm not seeing your feet move. And I'm questioning whether or not your commitment is truly there how can I help you that's called love by the way that's exactly what I do and I do that as a coach and in my work as a coach when I do that that's that's tough love but it is love. And so love and connection I think is a mechanism that the workplace sadly is lacking. I'm so glad You're involved in it because it's such a necessary thing. Because what we call support in the workplace is truly love and connection.

unknown 44:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:09

Well, and you can't like this is the whole thing, like this faking it, faking it thing, right? People know, you know. So when I train people in change management, we talk about like how middle the middle management layer is actually that ultimate vehicle for communicating and the the like single contributors or full contributors, frontline workers, they'll mirror the attitudes of the change of that minimal middle management layer. Because like not only are they the closest to them, but they're the ones who are in their world day in and day out and understand what they're dealing with way more so than the director level or the VP level or the exact, you know, the CEO. And the challenges, and in, you know, I've had very like some very uncomfortable conversations with that middle management layer where it's like, you know, having people get real about the fact that you don't actually support the change as much as you say you do. You say you support the change because you feel you have to, you're obliged to, because that's what a good manager does. But the problem with this saying I support the change when in fact I really don't, and I'm not being honest about it, people don't, they experience who you're being, not what you say. So a manager can stand in front of a person and say, you know, yeah, this change is great. We definitely want to take this on. And and and if they don't actually, if they're not congruent, and I love this idea of like alignment and congruency, if they don't authentically believe the words that are coming out of their mouth, their employees may not necessarily think they're lying, but there's something off in the experience. We know when someone's not being real with us. We experience who they're being, and so this creates mistrust. And you know, like like Steve Cove, Stephen Covey's book, you know, the speed of trust, where he talks about counterfeiting trust. So like this like technically telling the truth or beating around the butcher, or even this inauthentic inauthenticity at the level of being. I say one thing in it, but I don't actually believe in it. And I'm just telling the corporate line because I think I should. This is what has creates even more resistance in the in the people who are supposed to be carrying out the work, right? Because they know they know that they're they they don't may not know exactly, but they can in the their experience of the situation, one in one plus one is not like is not equal to three, right? Like it's like yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:40

You know what's interesting in what you're saying about the middle management layer, I think it's spot on the mark because um they're the ones who are most fearful and have the most to lose, which is why they're the most fearful, by the way. Um and what do I mean by that? You see, if you're the CEO or the executive wing, and you guys decide or you decide you're gonna shift in strategy or try something different and innovative and it doesn't work out. You took a risk and it didn't work out, you go wow, that you know, that uh was not that didn't work out. We made good decisions and we thought it through, but it didn't work out. You got nothing to lose. Why? Because you're a senior executive. If you're at the entry level, if you're a first line performer doing your thing early in your career, whatever the case might be, and you try something new and it doesn't work out, well, I've got news for you. You don't have far to fall because you're like first line level. But if you're in the middle and you've spent the last 10 or 20 or more years investing in, complying by the rules and enforcing the rules and doing things the way they're supposed to be done, you got everything to lose. And so I am not prepared to risk any of that if I'm a middle manager, by fighting the way it is. Equipping these people with a safe way to work, to collaborate effectively, to live, work, and play together, so that they are changing the way the dynamics we work together in the workplace will change the corporate culture. And that's the work that I'm doing in do less, accomplish more, make a difference, create a culture shift. It's all about the middle creating change, but not in the way you think. In other words, not the next radical digital idea, but in the way we interact so it goes viral within the organization. Because that's the beautiful place, right in the middle.

SPEAKER_00 48:34

I love it. And you've got a book coming out soon, right, George? About like that speaks to all of this. Tell tell me a little bit about the book.

SPEAKER_02 48:41

Yeah, absolutely, please. So thank you for asking. Uh the book is called I Love Mondays. And okay, and so interestingly enough, interestingly enough, uh somebody said to me that's probably the second shortest book in the world, George, next to the book that's titled What Men Know About Women. Um and that may be true and it may not be true. Needless to say, uh it's uh it's a book called I Love Mondays, subtitled Accomplish More, Make a Difference, and Create a Culture Shift. It's written by myself and a co-author, Dakota Lamar. Uh we wrote it to a business audience, but we wrote it in story form, like a nonfiction story with a hero and a journey and ups and downs and a happy ending. You get the point, right? And it includes it includes a non-human, wise, sage advisor coach who supports and works with our hero as she goes through her journey, eventually transforming herself, those around her and her organization. And so it's written as a story, uh, much more entertaining than a typical kind of you know, dull, if I can use that term, sort of bullet-pointed business book, which can be, you know, not particularly stimulating read, informative, but maybe not stimulating. And so um, so I've written the we've written the book. It's going to be published in the next uh few months. I don't have a firm deadline on it, but I'm certainly hopeful it'll be on the shelves in the next eight weeks. It's called I Love Mondays. Um, and it's really all about the, as I described a moment ago, it's about helping people understand that there's a belief shift that needs to take place. And we share some of those belief shifts, such as it's just the way it is, is a current belief. Well, what about a new belief, a belief that reads something like, I can make a difference? And so it is about belief shifts. We share um six individual uh skills in there, where our hero Jessica practices, learns these skills and practices them with others. Um, and that helps her build competencies. And our work is very heavily focused on the beliefs and the skills that build these six competencies. And the six competencies are all about people. It's not about it, it being the function and the work, it's about the who. And the competencies are collaborate more effectively, instill accountability where it belongs, develop others, coach them to solve their own problems, enroll them into a cause and challenge effectively. And if we do that at work, we will be supporting others. We will living, we will be living, working, and playing better with others. We will transform ourselves, others, as well as our culture around us. And it can happen from anywhere, and it'll go viral as soon as people realize it's non-threatening. Like it's just plain non-threatening. I'm not challenging any rule in management that says you need to be a jerk. You know, it's we're just like, okay, I can be a normal human being and actually do these things. Um and so that's that's the purpose of the book and the work that that I do, and I'm just very blessed to be able to do it with some incredibly wonderful people.

SPEAKER_00 51:59

Well, and as someone that I I I haven't read the latest, late latest version of the manuscript, but someone who had the pleasure of participating in in reviewing the book for George, it's it's a great read. You should definitely check it out. Like, you know, I I um you'll you'll learn a lot that's gonna make a like a tangible difference in in just in life, uh, especially in your in the corporate, in your if you're someone who's working in corporate, but just even even as entrepreneurs for for the audience listening to the show, uh definitely a great read. And you know, George, just you're such a gift to the people who get to work with you. So if anyone is interested in George's services or, you know, like getting developed or developing their teams and leadership or any of the things that you've heard in this conversation, links to be able to contact George and his website and all of that will be available in the show notes. And I know this is not, I mean, this is you and I are kind of dancing in conversation for life. George, I'm so grateful to have you on my journey. And this is definitely not the last time we'll have you on the show. And just thank you so much for being here this morning. It's such a pleasure to have this conversation with you.

SPEAKER_02 53:06

Well, I'm I'm the I'm the one who should be grateful because you extended the invitation and I thank you for that. It's been a pleasure being here. It's always a pleasure chatting with you, of course, Amber. You know, today was a especially wonderful example because it gave us an opportunity to have this conversation so an audience could hear. And I'm hoping that people do take away from this perhaps a pearl of wisdom that is helpful for them, maybe just a challenge that's valuable for each of your listeners to say, you know what, maybe I don't have to take the way it is. Maybe I can use these different examples. Maybe I can be just a tiny bit more human with my coworkers, which would bring out the humanity in them and the humanity in all of us. And I think that's a wonderful thing if that just happens.

SPEAKER_00 53:46

That's a perfect way to end this morning's conversation. Have a great day, everyone, and we'll talk to you next week.

SPEAKER_01 53:53

Thank you so much for joining us for this week's episode. For show info, visit what wouldamberdo.com. And for information about Amber Howard and Associates' offerings and services, visit amberhowdenc.com.