We bring you in quite a case to create your real life experiences to bring an entrepreneur so you can have your whole life work. Now here's your host, Amber Howard.

Welcome back, everyone. So good to have you here with us this morning. I'm so excited to have with me CJ Devgun. CJ is a digital transformation consultant and speaker. CJ is the managing partner of the Wheeling Group who develop and implement business strategies for digital operations. CJ has been an adjunct professor at the Schulich School of Business. And we met when we were, we both worked together for a period of time at Toronto Pearson International Airport. And on top of all of that, as if that wasn't enough, CJ is also a husband and a father, and he's the host of a podcast called Breaking Barriers. So CJ, just such a pleasure and privilege to have you on the show this morning. Thank you for being here.

Thank you, Amber, for having me. And that last piece is the most important piece, which is husband and father to three beautiful kids, because that's the only legacy you're going to leave behind. Everything else will be meaningless.

Yeah, it's beautiful. I absolutely agree. And I that that's such a powerful why, right? It's we're CJ and I were just talking before we came on about like what matters, right? And being present in the moment. And you know, that that is a very powerful why.

Absolutely. Because as I was stating before, you know, what happened in the past is a baggage. It is up to us whether to carry it or drop it. And what is going to happen in the future, who knows, right? We can have all beautiful plans laid out and COVID hits. So you only know what you know is today. This moment is the only truth. So live in this moment. I'm not saying don't plan. Absolutely have planned, but live in the moment. Don't worry about future, don't worry about past. Those are outside of your control. You only control this particular moment that you're living in.

It's such an interesting thing to know that, right? And then then there's like so we know that. And you know, this is like this is a lesson I've been given many, many times and continue to get in life. Be present, be in the moment. And, you know, so it's it's so simple to say it, but then in the actual experience of doing it moment by moment and being and living from that place moment by moment, is uh it takes something sometimes because it's so uh easy, comfortable, whatever to go back into the past or you know, worry about the future. And uh I think that's one of the things I love about children so much, especially young children, is they're very present. They're almost present to the exclusion of anything other than what they want in this exact moment, right? And I think there's a real lesson that adults can take from children in that ability to be so present in the moment.

And that is why the ability of children to learn is so much greater because studies have shown the amount of learning we do in the first five years, we don't even do half of that rest of our life. Yeah, imagine things uh they learn during the first five years of their life, right? How to talk, how to walk, how to run, how to eat, how to dress up.

Yeah, it's so true. I um it's a that's a beautiful place to start this conversation. So thank you, CJ. So talk to me a little bit. Like, how did you talk to your career? You've you've worked in tech and in business for for decades, you've taught at you know one of the best business schools in the world. Like, tell me a little bit about your journey. How did you get to be where you are today?

So, as you know, uh and as people can tell, I was born and raised in India. Um, and I came here uh actually to New York City in 91 to pursue my MBA. And uh US was going through a very tough recession at that time. And I come from a small middle class family, right? India didn't have the wealth that we have today in India. So I came with about $2,000 in my pocket, and the goal was that I will work part-time and then support myself through the school. And having uh graduated in physics, there were not that many jobs available for a graduate in physics, and I soon realized that the future lies in information technology. So I uh turned back, uh went back to India and pursued uh my postgraduate um in computer systems, and then I came back again, and by stroke of luck I landed in Canada instead of New York City because um uh I had family and friends here. And one thing I also learned in New York City, it's a big city, and if you don't have support structure, it becomes more difficult when you are completely brand new. So that's how I started working, and again the recession was still on in 93, and um some of my best jobs were doing um I don't know if how many of you may remember, but in 93 there was a big push going on to make smaller, smarter government, and I I did a lot of process reengineering work with uh the federal government, as well as internet was something that was just coming in, and we didn't even used to call it internet in those days, we used to call it information highway, and I was very lucky to work for a startup company that was um uh doing some very interesting work um in the internet, and that's how I started, and then I always loved business and and I wanted to move from development to designer to architect to project manager, and by 2002, I was uh North American practice director for Computer Sciences Corporation leading their healthcare practice in the US. So that's um in a nutshell what my background is.

Sounds like you've had quite the interesting journey, you know, and and why what what are some of the sources of inspiration that have kept you going? You know, like showing up in New York, realizing, oh, hold on a second here, like going back to India. You know, for a lot of people, some of those experiences that you've had may have stopped them. It's like, you know, they would have been like, oh, I I didn't achieve my goal or I didn't do what I said I was gonna do. Maybe I'll just stop. But it's you know, clearly you're someone, CJ, who keeps moving forward. And it's like, okay, well, if I'm, you know, like I I love the saying there's like a thousand ways to get to New York. So my goal is to get to New York. How am I gonna get to New York? Like and not getting stopped by when, you know, past A, B, C, D. And I think this is really relevant to being an entrepreneur because as entrepreneurs, we deal with a lot of so-called like maybe temporary defeats. I don't, I like to distinguish as Napoleon Hill does, and I know you're a fan of the book Think and Grow Rich, like the difference between a temporary defeat versus a failure. And I also know the value of having inspirations to keep us going when the when we experience those temporary failures.

See, I'm a big sports fan, and I love cricket and I love um American football. And uh, if you look at both those sports, um if you throw one interception doesn't mean you lost the game. You don't lose the game by one play. People may call recall that play over and over the next morning, but it's not one play that will win you a Super Bowl or lose your Super Bowl, it's a series of plays that a team has to make consistently to get to their finish line. And in there's a book called Good to Great by Jim Collins. Uh, if people haven't read and you are an entrepreneur, I will strongly recommend reading that book. And there is uh multiple different things they talked about, what makes certain companies great, right? There are a lot of good companies, but there are very few great companies. And um, they did a lot of interviews um with the CEOs and and and Jim Collin has done a couple of other books as well. Now there was one interview they did about this uh highest ranking US general who got um captured by Vietnamese forces and he was in the their prisons for a very long time. And later on he was released once uh the the truce was done and he was a professor, uh I don't remember the the university, but somewhere in California, I think Berkeley, if my memory serves me right. So Jim Collins said, What enabled you to survive all the torture that you went through for years? It wasn't months, it was a few years that he stayed in in capture. And his point was, I always believed that I will go come home. He said, What about those people who didn't survive? He said they were they believed that they're gonna come home. I said, So what is the difference between your belief and their belief? You just told me that you believe that you're gonna come home and that is why you survived all that uh tr torture. He says, I believed it, but I was also realistic that it is not going to happen tomorrow or next week or next month. It is going to take a period of time for me to come home. Whereas the other people believe that the next day a SEAL team will come in and rescue them, and then the next morning will come and there will be no SEAL team, and they will say, Okay, next week for sure, SEAL team will come and rescue us, and next week will come and nobody getting rescued, and then they will give up hope and they will go and into depression or whatnot. And the same thing applies to all of us. So when I came to US, I realized that I have a goal to study here, and I did achieve my MBA by the way. Those credentials are proof of those. But it took me another 10-12 years before I did my MBA. I did my MBA in 2004 from uh from Ivy School, Western University in London. Um, but in 1991, I realized that if I want a good life, I need to upgrade my skills. You know, physics is not a bad career, but the kind of jobs uh a young student is going to get are not available for that. Okay, so so I have to upgrade myself with the technology that is going to move this whole universe forward. So that realization was very important. Same thing when I became a developer. I could have stayed a developer for my life, but I knew that if I want to progress in life, I need to think beyond development. You know, what is beyond development? Okay, how do we design software? What is beyond designing? How do we architect? What is beyond, you know, why business is doing this thing? What is the why, why, why? I I say ask nine whys before you get to the final root cause of any issue. So that is very important mantra for me. That has worked for me. You know, not that I haven't had, you know, you term use term, you know, um, whatever you call, I don't even afraid of a word like failure. Failure is a part and parcel for life. How you get back up on your feet is the most important thing that defines you, not what brought you down, but how you reacted and bounced back on your feet. Um, is is the real character of a person.

Yeah, and and I really loved what you said there, where it's like, like I hear patience and like and giving up, like that that general knew he knew he was getting home. It's like that confidence, like I'm getting home, I don't know what it's gonna look like, I don't know when. But when you have that confidence, then that that the it's like the steel, it forges something, you know, makes steel harder. Knowing versus those other people was like when they when they when they thought they knew what it was gonna look like and it didn't happen the way it looked, that eroded their sense of hope and conviction and belief in what in that they were gonna be able to get what they actually wanted. And then we know that like our thoughts create the world that we live in. So when you when you stop believing that you can have the things that you want and that you're gonna be able to achieve your goals, then you know your life starts to reflect what your thoughts are, right? So I think that's really brilliant and thank you for that. Um and I haven't read Good to Great. It's come up a couple of times. So clearly the universe is like, okay, Amber, time to read that book. Um and I like the analogy of it. I'm not a huge sports fan, I'll be honest. And anyone who really knows me knows that. I love rugby, I love the all blacks uh coming from New Zealand. Like that's I'm I'm I'm told we got a pretty good cricket team, not as great as India's, but you know, pretty good cricket team as well. Uh, but I like that idea that of like when you take on the context or you choose to frame it as a series of plays. And and because then it's like the journey itself gets to be enjoyable. It's not about trying to get somewhere. And this has been one of my new mentors in my life, the gentleman I interviewed a couple weeks ago on the podcast, Chris, was saying, you know, you can have the greatest vision for your life. And I know vision is something that you do a lot with your clients and helping people figure out the vision, something I do with mine as well. And the vision can bring you pleasure, but is the journey to achieve the vision bringing you pleasure? Because so many, and I can see this in my own life, CJ, where it was like, oh, I'll just keep following the path. I'm not really enjoying the path, I'm not loving the path. But once I get to the result, then I'll love it. And it and that like it'll work out in some cosmic balancing of the scales, that the pleasure will come someday, one day. And then Chris's encouragement as I'm looking at my next venture, that I, you know, where my heart's desire really is, make sure that you create however you're going to achieve this goal, that that brings you pleasure as well, because it's not going to come down the road.

Yeah, the goal is is less important to me than the journey. Because as I said, you know, this moment is the only moment that I know for fact. Yeah. What is out there in the future, I don't know. Right. So if I am not enjoying this moment, then there's something wrong. So as you mentioned, the thousand ways to New York, you know, you will get to New York, right? But whichever route you're taking to get to New York, you need to enjoy that, right? Very, very important. Yes.

Yeah. So, and this is, I think, very apt for entrepreneurs, right? Because like, so yeah, the typical journey is like, oh, you have this idea, like for whatever reason, maybe people work in corporate or they come up with a product, good or service, and they're like, they see a need out there in the world, and they're like, oh, I've got some, I can fill that need. And you're very passionate about that. But then one thing that a lot of people, I don't think, realize is there are way more aspects to running a successful business than having a product, good or service. And, you know, one of the things that I'm committed to for people is that they get training and development and how to fulfill on, you know, the other aspects of running a business, sales, marketing operations, all of those things. And you and I've talked about it in the past. You know, there's so many different hats that an entrepreneur has to wear, especially at the beginning when we're typically alone, right? It's like we're here we are, one person trying to get this business off the ground. Um and you may not love all of those hats. So I'd love to hear your thoughts, like you know, on technology, how can technology help with this? What are some strategies or ideas? What's your experience been around helping people move through that initial period of starting a business or getting an idea off the ground, which can be um there's we've got this idea that when we look at it in our world, there's a lot of gaps for people.

So I'm a big believer in team. Even though you are a solo entrepreneur, doesn't mean you cannot create a team. There's always individuals, whether they are freelancers, whether they're on your payroll, whether they are your partners, whether they are your friends. You have to have to have to leverage those resources. The recipe for failure is if you think you're gonna lift this thing by yourself alone, it's a long journey and you will get tired. You know, there's a a Chinese saying, you know, you wanna go fast, go alone. You want to go far, you bring people with you. And it's so natural. If if at evening now beautiful summer weather is coming in, spring and summer, you know, we're gonna go for our evening walks. If at days I go out for a walk alone, uh, I don't go far. I just quickly go around the block and come home. But days that me and my wife go together, you know, we can go for a long walk because we're talking, we don't even realize how much distance we have come. And that's natural in our business world too. Right? In business, we have three key things that I always believe every business has to do. One is market. You can the world doesn't work that you build it, people will come. It doesn't work. You have to market your product. So that's the most important thing. Then building absolutely, which I call operations, and making sure that the building is stable and it's continuously working, has proper uh heat, proper purification of air, whatnot, you need to do. And third is selling. And people sometimes confuse marketing with selling, but they're two distinct, completely distinct marketing. Um, I don't want to get into the three, what the differences are between them, but those are three key things that every entrepreneur needs to do. And like you said, we are not good at all of those. There are very few superstars who can do all of those things, you know. Even if I take an example of Tom Brady, who's the greatest of all time, quarterback, but he had a team, he had a coach, he had offensive coordinator, he had a great defense the year one that he won, you know. So people who have gone on to win championships didn't do it on their own. They had a great support structure around them, which had enabled them to achieve those goals. And the same thing applies to each and every one of us. If I want to do something by myself, I won't go far. Now, if I want to really go far, then I have to delegate certain things that I'm not good at. I'm not good at marketing, you know, I'm not good at selling. I may be very good at operations. So then why would I carry those two heads and be unhappy and then say, nope, I don't want to even be on the journey. Right? So if I want to continue my journey, I want to and I want it to be pleasant, and I have to delegate some of the responsibilities to people who are good at what they do.

So I I think what you're saying is really brilliant, and I I think it's it's important to understand that. And what about like, you know, maybe talk to some people who are starting off, maybe they don't have capital to hire people, you know. What are some of the thoughts you might have around how you can start to build that team around you if you're not yet generating enough revenue in your business to be really hiring staff?

Yeah, delegating doesn't mean hiring people, right? I like I use the word freelancers, right? There are a lot of freelancers. If you want someone on your board of directors, you can reach out to CJ Davans of the Worlds and say, okay, would you be minding be part of the board of directors, right? Give me a weekly guidance. We can have a have a coach who can make sure, you know, once a week you're gonna be sitting down. Yes, you're gonna pay some amount of money, depending on which coach you're gonna go hire, which person you're gonna bring in. People can be charging 200. But anytime you're going into business, you have to understand there is a level of Money that you need to commit to, right? Whether you give them money or you give them something in return, you have to figure that out. Same way, who is building your website? Is it just the website? Good enough? How are you going to promote that website? So there may be some marketing people out there who will do it for you, right? You can find them in Canada. And if you cannot afford those people in Canada and US, go to Philippines or go to some other countries where there are some other people out there. You need to make outbound calls. You don't have time. So delegating is not a bad thing. And you have to put that structure in place. If you are making 20 outbound calls every day and you're getting rejected on all those 20, you're getting every rejection takes a soul out of you, or a piece of soul out of you. I've been there, right? And those are the most difficult things you can do. Now you delegate to someone else, they are getting hit, but they are used to it. You know, and now you are focusing on something else that you're really good at, you know, going to networking events, going to places where people who are going to buy your solutions are actually there, listening to their problems, explaining what you're doing, and things like that. But if you're doing just networking and no outbound calls, then you don't know the people you're selling are actually on those outbound calls. So there are a lot of things that are involved in running and growing a business. And that's the reality, right? Sometimes people don't want to hear what is reality, but the reality is that you need to have three distinct sets of activities that need to be done: marketing activities, sales activities, and operational activities for you to be successful. How you figure that out is up to you.

Yeah, and back to the conversation we're having about the pleasure piece, the desire. Like I think when you're able to delegate out the pieces that don't bring you pleasure or are not desirable for you, then you know, that frees you up, as you said, to be really focused on what your gifts and talents are. And and the this idea, I love this idea that I heard recently from Chris again. It's like just being able to own your limitations and your lacks and not like those are a bad thing. Like, you know, I really want, like maybe you even want to be great at sales, and I'm not. And that's not my strong suit, and that's not my expertise. And that's okay. And I can go find someone who's a superstar in sales that's just really going to have my business excel at a much faster rate so that I can get back to why I created this thing in the first place, which was like serving people in whatever capacity my business serves, right?

Absolutely. It's going back to the same thing, recognizing the reality of the moment. And if I'm not recognizing that and I'm closing my eyes to it, then you're not doing any good service to yourself. You're doing disservice, in my opinion.

Yeah, really great. So talk to me a little bit about your podcast, CJ. You're in the third season. Uh, what is breaking barriers all about?

So reinvention, as if I mentioned, um, is part and parcel of everything we do, right? And over period of last um and then and reinvention is something constant. But the pace at which the reinvention has to happen has really, really accelerated over the last 20 years. So the rate of disruption is just coming in, and and that's what um this podcast is about. Disruption is here. We have seen what Airbnb has done to hotel industry or Uber has done to the taxi industry, or or um Netflix has done to video stores, um, like Blockbuster, you know, digital photography has done to Kodak. So we have so many examples, but these are big brand examples. But every day, every business is winning or losing their competitive advantage because new disruptors are coming in. And a lot of small businesses are not constantly looking at ways to reinvent themselves. And that's what this podcast is that because of these disruptors, you need to be constantly thinking about how you're going to change the way you serve your customers. And uh and and love it because just like individuals, businesses have to reinvent themselves quite regularly.

I agree. And uh I love the like a the smile that you can't see CJ's face right now, but like podcasting is fun, right? Like it's like neat to have these conversations with people and to create a platform to kind of allow people to connect to ideas and um so you talk about your tagline for the podcast is turnaround, transform, transcend. And I I found that interesting, CJ, because a lot a lot of people uh kind of get like stop at the transform part, right? So this the language of transformation reinvention is very um, you know, kind of common it's around a lot. But talk to me about what it what do you mean by transcend, right? And and is transcendence like the ultimate place to like to kind of get to in terms of business, or um what is what do you mean by transcend?

So why did CJ Devon left India where he was so comfortable and came to New York City at the age of 20? You know, I can tell you uh that trans that was trans part of transformation, right? But that transformation was for what you know and a better life for myself and better life for my family. And we all have certain reasons why we are transforming, and what are those reasons? Very importantly, we need to know. And those reasons will help us get to that next level, right? So we all are constantly reinventing ourselves and we are constantly transforming ourselves to do what and whatever that that term people use, you know, whether it is your legacy, you know, whether these are dreams, whether they are visions, you know, whatever the futuristic you is to get to that stage is that transign to me is very important for our businesses uh as is for individuals. So I I interchangeably use businesses and individuals because I do serve businesses mostly, but I have an innate desire to help individuals as well, because the journey that I had, you know, I want to share that experience with individuals who may be in the state where I was 20 years ago, 30 years ago.

That's beautiful. It's like uh that kind of paying it, paying it backwards, right? Or paying it forward, but being able to contribute to other people and help them achieve their goals, I think is um there's nothing quite like it. And then watching people kind of step into yeah, absolutely. And I think that, you know, I know education is something that's very important to you. And I think that probably speaks to a little bit of that teacher in us, right? Like it's like, you know, um, I love my students. We're just coming to the end, they're they're in the middle of writing their final exams over the next three days. So uh, you know, I'm like a mama bear, like checking in who hasn't written yet? Do they need some encouragement? Like uh I think when you're a teacher, you know, you have that kind of there's like that natural desire to to to lift people up, right? And help people achieve the things that are important to them.

Absolutely. I I don't think I have ever given final exam to any of my students. You know, never final exam was a project that they have to go do by applying all the concepts they have learned during that uh 16-week course.

Yes, well, I don't create the curriculum, so they have a final, they have a actually it's really neat in this course. I'm gonna be running it again, like I'm teaching it again in May. They do a business, like they do a maturity model, uh, a maturity assessment of a business, which I think is really cool. And I think so it's a very underutilized tool. I don't think a lot of enough people are doing maturity assessments of their their business analysis practice. And so that's super neat. So they do do that, but they do have a final exam. And I don't determine that. It's uh I'm I'm delivering the university's curriculum, but I I I agree that a test is a not necessarily a final exam is not necessarily always the best way to gauge what someone has learned. Um, so I I wholeheartedly agree, which I think is part of the reason. And for many of them, I mean they're coming, many of them are coming. They do the leadership course last, so they're coming to the end of their certificates, but um, for a lot of them, they haven't been taking tests or adult learners, right? So they haven't been taking tests regularly since high school or college. It's been a long time, so it can be confronting, right? So I like to just check in and make sure that they're they've got everything that they need and they're okay and that they're being encouraged. Um absolutely. So do you have and you know, just kind of circling back a little bit to that idea of like sales operations and marketing and and you know, technology, there's so much noise, you know, this has been something I've really experienced that I've worked in tech for a long time, but like not as an entrepreneur, not running my own business. And so when I stepped out to start looking at, and and it's funny because as a business analyst, I know the first place you're supposed to start is with your requirements and what do I really need. But you may not even need the right know the right questions to ask to know what you need in terms of technology. And so, you know, I I've made a couple of like investments in in different platforms and stuff, and then I've gone, oh, that's actually not what I really want. Um, and I know how great technology is at like bringing efficiency to things when you're making kind of the right investments. Uh, but there's a lot of different solutions out there, you know, online platforms for selling, um, you know, building membership sites, websites. Do you have any from your experience? Um, you know, even if it's not, I'm not necessarily saying uh a platform that you endorse or support, but um for startups, for people who are new, CJ, do you have any kind of suggestions on an approach that one might take to kind of getting to a technology that's really going to help people scale their business and uh and and support them with some of those elements of sales and marketing and operations?

So I normally don't work with um uh small entrepreneurs in that aspect. I do help large Fortune 100 companies with their IT strategy, and I always go back when I'm talking about digital transformation. Most of my clients um are in a very different um stratosphere. But it goes back to their vision, okay. What is your vision and and what business objectives and business goals you want to achieve? You know, I won't want to name the kind, but I was with a very big automotive uh company, very well-known automotive company, and they were having some challenges with their overall warranty program. And and we looked at okay, where are the gaps? Why vehicles are coming into dealership for repairs? How can we do root cause analysis on the parts that are failing? Now, is it the part that is failing or is it the sub-assembly? Because a part could be made up of five different parts, and and that whole process needs to be looked at. So then you look at technology as an enabler. I always believe technology is an enabler. Technology does not drive your strategy, your strategy drives the technology investments you need to make. So that's how I look at uh things, and yeah, uh I'm never a big fan. Like I don't believe upgrading people from uh Windows 7 to 10 is a is a is a strategic project, it's an operational project. You need to do that operationally because but investing, and then and we both have worked at the the airport, right? So let's take an example of that. The strategic vision was that we want to make it uh a global hub. And if we want to make it a global hub, what do you need to do? Now, Toronto is a very uniquely positioned city, so most airports you will have either international passengers or local passengers, but in Canada, and the only uniqueness is I don't think there's any other country like that, where we have local, international, and trans border to US. And we have to keep separate sections because planes cannot um, I don't know what the term is, dock to the gate. You know, so the gate assignment, and that was one of the programs that we did. You recall, right? So when the plane is leaving Ethereum, we need to understand how many people are there on that plane and where are they connecting to. And based on that, you can do gate assignment as much as you have to do gate assignment based on. So that is what is driving your business strategy. You know, how can I make global hub for us to become global hub? We need to make it easier for passengers to transfer between one gate to second gate. And if people are going through five different security checks, because now then they will not want to come to Toronto. So if someone is going to Detroit, you know, and they have the option of connecting through JFK or connecting through Toronto, which one would they prefer? And and that experience has to be lived through, and then you decide on technology. How can technology help us improve those passenger experiences? So that's how I look at technology.

I love it. Thank you for sharing that. And I think you're, I think that's it, it really does, it's like from in the world of project management, working from the end, right? Like when this vision is fulfilled, and you may not know exactly the how. And I think it's important. Uh, I was having a conversation earlier this morning with someone, and uh part of what I'm bumping up against in my own journey as an entrepreneur is like what I want to do has never been done before. And so, how like where are the gaps for me? Where do I look to for guidance? And um because I actually have no idea how to accomplish the vision at the scale at which I want to create it. And um he the person who is Will was sharing with me said he asked a similar question of someone else who created something that was very transformative in the world of personal development. And he said, you just start. You just start. And the most important thing is to start and and thinking about something is not starting. And and another thing I'm really taking away from this conversation with UCJ is, and this is definitely one of my gaps that I I've recognized for a while is the importance of building team. Um, and just like really not uh and and actually having team be the starting place for the creation of something. Um, and and it's interesting because I've just finished a period of time studying, uh, thinking grow rich quite intensely for six months, and and that whole masterminding piece. I still haven't built my mastermind. So, you know, thank you so much for for your contributions and for being on the show this morning. And I think, you know, for anyone listening, um, there'll be opportunities for you to check out CJ's podcast and his, you know, look him up on LinkedIn and Facebook of that if you're interested in connecting with him further and and speaking with him about um or what you're up to and how he might be able to serve you in your journey. And and uh I got so much value out of being with you this morning, CJ, and I know other people would too. So just thank you for for sharing yourself and your expertise and your experiences and your wisdom with us this morning.

Thank you so much, Amber. I really enjoyed our conversations and gave me an opportunity to reach to your audiences. And yes, anyone wants to reach out to me, please feel free to check me up on LinkedIn. My website is cjdefun.com. And uh I would love to connect with you.

Yeah, that'll definitely be in the show notes, everyone. Have an amazing weekend and uh have a great day.

Thank you so much for joining us for this week's episode. For show info, visit what wouldamberdo.com. And for information about Amber Howard and associates' offerings and services, visit amberhowardec.com.