SPEAKER_00 0:06

Your weekly host of climate inspiration and credit to have your small business and whole life. We bring you incredible guests who share their real life experiences of being an entrepreneur so you can have your whole life work. Now, here's your host, Amber Howard.

SPEAKER_02 0:27

Good afternoon. Welcome back to What Would Amber Do? It is really an honor today to be speaking with Andrew Harvey and have him as a guest on the show. Andrew is an internationally acclaimed poet, novelist, translator, mystical scholar, and spiritual teacher. Andrew is the founder and director of the Institute of Sacred Activism. And closest to my heart, Andrew co-authored a book, an incredible book that you've heard me talk about at Nauseam called Evolutionary Love Relationships, and which we're studying in my book club right now. And just so thank you, Andrew. It's such a gift to have your time here and speak with you today.

SPEAKER_01 1:09

I'm thrilled that you created a book club, and I'm thrilled that you're reading this book, because this book, which I co-authored with Chris Sardi, one of my dearest friends, and somebody whom I adore and respect and have learned a huge amount from, because he truly is a magnificent philosopher, mystic, and a great writer, is a book that is very close to my heart. Because I think what we are all looking for is profound recognition and really being seen, not just in our gifts, but in our divine beauty and potential. And I think that there is a deep movement that is emerging in our time of people who understand that love isn't just a great romantic explosion, but it's also an initiation. It's an initiation into the glory and the beauty of the heart. And, and this is what this book is about, it is potentially the fuel for really emerging as a human divine being dedicated to pouring yourself out in luminous service to an obviously endangered and burning world. So that's why Chris and I, who are united in so many ways, united to produce this book. And I'm happy to say that it has had a tremendous reception from people because people aren't just looking for the recognition of their essence. They're looking too for soul partners, for twin flames, for people who resonate with them body, heart, soul, and mind, and are prepared to come into the furnace of dynamic relationship and really together and separately start doing wonderful, holy, glorious things for the world at this time. And that's so, so important.

SPEAKER_02 3:22

It's it's been amazing. So I think we're we're on chapter seven this week. We've been, you know, our first week was just kind of the introductions and and like just watching people wrestle with, you know, some of the people are like, I just wanted it to be a how-to guide on how to create this kind of relationship. And it's like, and they're making me think so deeply. And and the words and and just like the things that we confront in our conversations. One of the gentlemen early on in the book club, he said, because it's mostly women, and there's like four men, which is kind of and five years of this.

SPEAKER_01 3:58

The women are so far ahead of most of the men. Although I am meeting at this moment so many utterly amazing young men who are really thirsty for a completely new level of relationship that with their friends and with their lovers. I it's astonishing what's emerging in this younger generation, but most of the pioneering people of in the 40s and 50s and 60s are women at this moment, they carry an enormous energy of transformation, and the men are trying to catch up.

SPEAKER_02 4:34

Yeah, well, and and I think you're so right. And I, you know, when you were speaking, Andrew, I was thinking about my son Matthew, because he very much for me epitomizes that you know, all of my children do, and my daughter as well. But for for men like Matthew's.

SPEAKER_01 4:49

Astonish you, these young men. Oh, I know. I I'm astonished always by young women, because I, in a way, I expect young women to be astonishing because I have such a reverence for women. But the what's really blowing my brains out is the sweetness of these young men, the incredible courage that they have. They're breaking through the barriers of homophobia, they're breaking through the barriers of putting women down, they genuinely want to have much more passionate relationships with their own buddies, and much more holy and grounded, and amazing, and active and initiatory relationships with their lovers, whether that's women or men. It's it really gives me an immense amount of hope seeing and knowing and being loved by these young men because although I'm an old geezer, they treat me with such love and respect, and they want to know what I know. It's wonderful, and I want to know what they know because they radiate so much that's so noble and beautiful. I'm I'm stunned by them.

SPEAKER_02 5:54

Yeah, so beautiful. And you know what? You said I've been single for almost 13 years now, or it might be 13 years, and and this book and what you and and Chris talk about, it's like it's a possibility of something I've always wanted. And you know, that that union of mind, body, and soul, being with someone who I can create, fulfill on my legacy, both together and separately. But we, you know, we support each other's what we're up to, we're both up to big things in the world. And and it I think it is difficult sometimes, you know, when you when you if you can think it and speak it, then you know it's possible. And actually meeting Chris and now meeting you, it's even more affirming for me that there are men out there that I could connect with on this level. And so it's like, well, do you pursue relationships that might not provide all of that, or do you wait and and you know keep nurturing and cultivating um the possibility of having that kind of connection that I read about in the book? That I'm like, no, that that's like that is what my heart is craving, wants, and desires.

SPEAKER_01 7:00

Jump in and tenderly advise you to wait. Don't don't sell your dream short. Yeah, stand in the center of your own being and radiate your own deepest truth and your own greatest work. And you're doing that, I can see that. And wait for the one that can resonate with you in your mind, in your heart, in your soul, and in your body, so that you can feel loved completely and so that you can love completely. You know, I am about to write a book about Mary Magdalene and about amazing new discoveries about her, the new gospels that are appearing after being hidden for centuries, and the new scholarship that's revealing what many have known, but now can be known, that she was the equal of Jesus. She was the consort of Jesus, she was, in her own way, a female Christ, and that Jesus couldn't have been possible in the glorious resonance of what he was without her spiritual, emotional, physical grandeur of presence. This changes everything. But what it shows us is what a evolutionary love relationship can do on the grandest, most immense, most stunning scale. Because those two beings, when they came together, they she changed him and he fortified and ennobled her. And the two of them are behind this vast revelation of human divinity that springs from the core of Jesus' message and has been horribly betrayed by the churches, but has been known and lived by the great mystics, especially the women mystics, who were so in touch in the secret ways with the passion of Mary Magdalene that they lived it and explored it and exploded with it throughout history. This is the real truth of the Christian mystical tradition, and that's what I'm going to be writing about. But why I'm mentioning it is because the more I dive into this relationship and the more I begin to begin to understand just how all penetrating and all comprehensive it is, the more I understand that it is the model for male-female relationship, for all relationships, for gay relationship also, because it doesn't matter what your sexuality is, what matters is that you realize and dare to realize that what your soul really wants is embodied divine human love from another. You want to be embodied and human and divine yourself, and you want to be met in your embodied divine humanity by someone else who sees you, recognizes you, supports you, sustains you, and challenges you in generous and empowering ways. This is the new humanity. Out of relationships like that will be born wholly healed, healthy children. Out of relationships like that, wholly new kinds of work in the world will be born. Out of relationships like that, the terrible wounds that women carry and the terrible wounds that the psychotic dissociated masculine carry, all of them will potentially be healed and we will have a new humanity. Sexually free, emotionally free, spiritually free, divinely humanly free. And Mary Magdalene and Jesus are smiling right now because that's what they lived, and that's what her return to us is offering all of those who love that particular revelation and all those who love any revelation, a template of understanding. Am I making some sense to you?

SPEAKER_02 11:11

You you absolutely are, and it's so interesting that you say that because I had a conversation recently with someone about like history, and like we relate to history like it's this fixed thing, but it's always written from a point of view and a context and a perspective. And it's like it, you know, and I and and for the most part, our history was written by men. And I so I asked the question like, what would the the so-called history of humanity look like if it were told through the voice of a woman, through the experiences of woman? And you before we came on and we started recording, Andrew, like we started to kind of touch on a conversation that earlier one of my girlfriends questioned, you know, what is it about women? Why is it so because I was sharing with you, and and as I've shared on the show before, the wounds that I've been healing around shame and self-hatred and the work that I've done, especially over the last five years, to really fall in love with myself. And what's amazing about that is the more I've fallen in love with myself, it's like my heart just keeps growing bigger. I have so much more capacity to love others in ways that I couldn't even imagine. And what I'm curious to know your thoughts on, based on the work that you've done in the Divine Feminine and all of your experiences, what is it about women?

SPEAKER_01 12:28

Why is it that so many women tend to have or bump up against this experience of shame and self-loathing and could women not, given the absolutely disgusting, denigrating, destructive, degrading ways that women and women's bodies and women's role in society has been treated in all of the patriarchal religions. Look at the way in which original sin was supposed to come into the world through Eve, making poor old Adam eat the apple. Well, there's another way of seeing that story that Eve was the real pioneer. She thought, well, this is nice, Eden, but it's pretty boring. We wander around naked, and there's this tree with this apple that could give us an extra knowledge of good and evil. That's exciting. So she eats it from her pioneering, joyful, exploratory spirit. And the Bible, in its official version, translates that into her being the essential criminal that brought death and pain and sin into the world. This is a disgusting defamation of the truth of Eve's courage and wild capacity for adventure. So that story is just one of many horrible stories that are told in the patriarchal traditions. And that story has seeped its venom into every institution, every liturgy, every denigration of the feminine. And so, women, all women, especially the most brilliant women that I know, carry that. Men also carry terrible wounds, but they're less conscious of them and they project them onto women. So their healing is more complicated. At least when women become aware of all of these ways in which they've been put down and denigrated and degraded and shamed and humiliated, they can start to do the great work of restoring the glory and the beauty of the sacred feminine with the return of the mother that's happening in our time. Because the mother is coming back in her full glory and her full wildness and her full power. And women who can connect with her will be shown the glory of their real essential divine feminine, and they'll be able to heal it. And then the men will start doing the work that they need to do to start healing their dissociation, their lust for power, their crazy fear of their own feminine. That's how I'm seeing so much going forward. But I'm never surprised when a woman tells me that she's lacerated by self-loathing. And I always try and say to her, it's not your self-loathing, it's the loathing that's been visited on the feminine, both in women and in men, and it's the loathing of a patriarchal culture for the body, for nature, for the beauty of the embodied Godhead, that is the source of the absolute insanity that is now obviously destroying the planet. So realize that how could you avoid this, encounter it, and heal it in direct relationship with the Divine Mother and become the empowered, radiant being that you were always born to be, so that us men can fall at your feet, adore you, sustain you, support you, and learn from you.

SPEAKER_02 16:04

I just like literally connected when you were talking about that, like even Pandora's box, like in Greek, like women are at in so many of these stories and myths, and uh you know, we are women are at the source of all that is evil and bad in the world.

SPEAKER_01 16:23

They made Mary Magdalene into a prostitute. There's absolutely no evidence that Mary Magdalene was a prostitute, she almost certainly was a very evolved adept herself, and although it seems that she had a very, very difficult period in her life when she was what they say in the Bible, she was possessed by seven demons and met Jesus and he exorcised her. There's a way of reading that, which is that she had she was suffering at the deepest level from all these different forms of patriarchal oppression. And she was on the verge of insanity, and she came through grace and through destiny into the presence of a man whose feminine was already profoundly evolved and who could see in her the glory of what she was. And by that seeing, by that recognition, and by his great humble spiritual power, he was able to clean her of the oppressive forces that were threatening her with madness and suicidal self-hatred. And then she came in her glory to him, and they knew each other on every level. He must have seen that she was the one destined for him, and part of the way in which his love met her was to meet her with the love of the true divine sacred masculine that adores the feminine, honors the feminine, and longs to learn from the feminine. That's amazing, and they turned that woman into a prostitute. That's what the boys' club did with her, and they wrote her out of this extraordinary truth that now is, thank God, is returning. He wouldn't have been him without her, he wouldn't have given us that astounding message of liberation and justice without her. He would have been another transcendent guru kind of person, but she grounded him and she initiated him into the mysteries of the feminine, which deepened his own understanding of divine reality and gave him a wholly new world vision, which is what he gave us. He was the child of an incarnate mother, an embodied divine mother, and he had an embodied divine consort. So he was surrounded by the sacred feminine and its most luminous, and he had the grace and the vision and the passion to know how much he needed that, and to make of his message a sacred marriage of the highest masculine and the highest feminine. That's true Christianity.

SPEAKER_02 19:16

I'm just like, wow, like how could people even like like think that you could have love at the level at which Christ loved people and that like that without a coming together of the masculine and the feminine? You can't. Like you you can't. And like if you look in for you know, for people listening, for if you look in your own experience of those moments in life, if you've had them where you have that experience of like love on that profounder level, whether it's with your children or you know, both are present. Right. And yet those that's not the story that's been told. And I just thank you for presencing that for me, Andrew, because it's like I got that on a whole. Like that, that for love to be fully, fully realized and experienced, both have to be present.

SPEAKER_01 20:06

Everything has to be present. The mind in its full splendor, the heart in its full passion, the body in its complete surrender and beauty and tenderness. They have to be unified and they have to be met by a love that's coming from a person who is unified. And when those two kinds of love come together, they birth a third, a kind of cocoon of radiance in which both people evolve. That's the truth, and that truth is possible now because of the ways in which we are beginning to begin to honor women and beginning to begin to release men from this absurd desire to be macho and dominators and predators, and to allow them to incorporate their own feminine, their own homoerotic side, their own real truth of love. This is for the first time in history, this is now coming to be possible. So this vision is coming in at this moment. It's a, it's no, it's no, it's not a mistake or it's not a uh coincidence that the true Mary Magdalene and the true Jesus are coming back at the moment when it's now possible for the fully empowered woman and the fully empowered man to come together in rapture and in humility and adoration. That's possible now for the first time. And woman and woman and man and man. This is not just a heterosexual game. It's a game for all. It's it's the radiant game for all true lovers.

SPEAKER_02 21:46

Well, I just so one of my ongoing inquiries and and the things that I have like in my own love journey that I haven't been able to figure out is like uh the masculine, feminine dance, and like I Supposed to be fine. I mean, I you know, by all terms, I've been in my masculine energy for much of my life. Haven't you? But I just got that it's like I'm balanced in my masculine and feminine, and so is he. And then we come together. I'm not going out there to look for some masculine, like it that's not the conversation. So, like, that is just like mind-blowing for me right now. Because I think that's what I've been trying to figure out is like, well, because it always felt like I had to give up something, my strength, the masculine parts of myself that the that you know that I relate to in order to find a love match and like step into the feminine in some way that I I'm not, you know.

SPEAKER_01 22:42

I mean, I think this new relationship that we're talking about is really inviting the following. You need someone who has a feminine, profoundly evolved enough to receive the beauty of your masculine, and you need someone who is also masculine empowered enough to be able to adore your feminine without fear. So you need both. Wow.

SPEAKER_02 23:12

That's like a whole new conversation for me.

SPEAKER_01 23:15

So like that's the new conversation. That is the new conversation between men and women, between gay lovers, between true friends. It's the new conversation because we're in an era in which we're being challenged to evolve or die out. We're not going to get through this extraordinary crisis that we've created out of our madness and dissociation, which is now destroying the planet, if we don't evolve to a wholly new level of embodied love. That's the key. And if we don't have visions of relationships, which are not just about private joy, but about emboldening each other to do the great work ahead that has to be done for humanity to have a hope in heaven or hell of getting through this global dark night that we're all in. And if you don't see that you're in an exploding world, you are truly blind.

SPEAKER_02 24:21

How could you and and actually in in the book, um in the chapter on honoring your heart, you actually say, don't go anywhere near the heart if you're not prepared to suffer, if you're not prepared to accept your portion of the heartbreak of God. And and when I read that, I was just like, um, yeah, like to be able to open your heart and allow yourself to be with the suffering of other people, especially if you live in countries like Canada and northern parts of North America where you could go your whole life if you choose not to look and see what's going on.

SPEAKER_01 24:57

No, I mean, you've got the Republicans lying and destroying democracy, you've got African Americans howling with outrage and people being killed. If you you really do have to be very, very blind, and you've got a climate crisis which is threatening the whole future of humanity. So, however privileged and comatose you are, you're going to be pierced again and again by the reality of a truly exploding world. You are. So you have two choices. Either you can pretend that's all fine because you have Whole Foods in your fridge, and you can play sweet and dumb and love and light and all that new age nonsense. Or you can take the authentic mystical path and just say, break my heart and break my heart open, and give me a radiant, wild, heartbroken, passionate heart dedicated to doing something to really help a world that needs people like this desperately to stand up. That's what those are the two choices.

SPEAKER_02 26:05

Yeah, you know, I'm about to launch a new endeavor around fulfilling on the United Nations sustainable development goals, along with like causing partnership at the global level, like a bringing together a focal point of the energy, because like that I think is missing. You've got like 10 million, you know, not-for-profits out there, everyone's doing their own thing. But if you were to bring those energies together and have people work in solidarity and in partnership, um, but along with that, also creating a global, global social movement called It Ends With Us about empowering people to take personal responsibility for whatever that it is for them. It could be cleaning up your neighborhood, ending human trafficking, the environment, whatever that it is for you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:50

With other people in sacred relationship. That's the key to the transformation of the planet. Yes. Then you will be able to be strong enough not to hide in magical thinking and face the extremity of the crisis with joy and with courage.

SPEAKER_02 27:17

I'm almost, I love, I'm from New Zealand. I love Syfy and fantasy as well. So I'm almost reminded of like the Fellowship of the Ring at Lord of the Rings when they they embark, you know, out of Rivendell onto their journey together. And and you know, there is doom and there is gloom, and there is this like unimaginable task.

SPEAKER_01 27:35

The friendship. I mean, Frodo and I forget his name, but the Sam, Sam Wise, Genji. They love each other and they support each other through everything. Yeah. That's what we're being called to do. And it's part of our journey to another stage of humanity, it's part of a journey into becoming a new kind of humanity.

SPEAKER_02 27:57

And theirs was a divine relationship. I can actually see that right now, too. Like they they completed one another, they couldn't have accomplished the task without each other.

SPEAKER_01 28:06

Those two boys have a perfect love because they would die for each other. And Tolkien was a Christian, so he remembered that phrase in the Gospels, you know, greater love hath no man than the one who will lay down his life for his friend. And that's Frodo, isn't it? Frodo would die for him.

SPEAKER_02 28:26

And Samwise for him. Yeah, I know. I just really saw that.

SPEAKER_01 28:30

Oh that's the masculine at its most beautiful, isn't it? It's what you can. I know Marines. I have some of my greatest friends are Marines, and they they love each other like that. They would die for each other. It's not sexual, but it's completely passionate and so holy and beautiful. Oh God. And men are capable of that. It's what's so sad is to see men diminished by competitiveness and diminished by homophobia and diminished by fear of really loving other men from discovering this noble power of sacred friendship. My God. So much of the greatest things in humanity have been done by noble friends. Chris and I are noble friends. Chris is my beloved brother, and I learned so much from him, but we're very naked in our relationship. We're not. And we can fight too. It's men like you need to fight sometimes with your brother. But out of that comes deeper and deeper, more and more naked, more and more authentic love. This is what we need in all of our relationships.

SPEAKER_02 29:40

I love the relationship between the two of you that gets revealed. For those of listening, parts of the book are dialogues between Chris and Andrew. And I I love the beauty in the friendship and the relationship that gets revealed, but between the two of you in your dialogue with one another, and how like the dialogue in and of itself is so loving and and and respectful and honoring. Like there's a profound honoring of each other.

SPEAKER_01 30:05

One of the things that Chris teached taught me, and Chris teaches his students, which I so love, he really emphasizes the importance of honoring in a way that no other teacher I know does. And I have learned how to do that from him because one of the things I think we do far too little. And since meeting Chris, I do it all the time with my friend, is simply to take time to say, I want you to know how wonderful you are. I want you to know that you help me so much by your brilliance, by your patience, by your kindness, by your naughtiness, by your mischief, by your wit in dangerous situations. I just want you to know I think you're fabulous. And I love you. It's so important that we do so much more of that. And don't stint on it because everybody needs it. When my friends do it to me, I am so steadied in my purpose and in my mission. And so let's do it and let's spread it like a contagion. Let's just remember every day when we speak to a friend or to our partner to stop and tell them how much we admire them and be precise about the admiration so that you can they can see their own face in the mirror of your heart. I have a trainer. I finally, at the age of 68, joined the gym, and I'm loving it because my trainer is a 25-year-old Pakistani Muslim guy, and we are having the most beautiful love affair of the heart. Because I talked to him about the Sufis, and he talks to me about swinging my head over my shoulders, and God knows what he doesn't get me to do. But we have this, and I told him today just what a wonderful teacher he is, and how he makes me want to do these crazy exercises that I never wanted to do ever. And that I love coming to be with him because he's so kind and so brilliant at what he does. And he cried because nobody, he said, nobody has ever told me what you've just told me. And I said, Well, they should, because you are a spectacular young man, and you're a fantastic teacher, and I love the hell out of you, and I'm so grateful for you. And I know that that means a lot to him, but it meant a lot to me to say it. But it's the source of so much beauty, because I know I go to be trained by him because I have such delight in him, and he should know that, because that would give him the courage to be the great teacher that he is, even more of the great teacher that he already is. And he's he's truly a servant of love in this 25-year-old strong boy body of his, strong man body of his. Amazing, amazing. He's one of those young men that take my breath away by their kindness and openness and tender virility, you know, that marriage of sweetness and strength that real beautiful men have. He does have that.

SPEAKER_02 33:16

I uh I I I I typically in my language call it acknowledgement, but we are really stingy as human beings.

SPEAKER_01 33:22

Like we're just like stingy with acknowledging and one of us doing something when you acknowledge somebody else's beauty. In fact, you're gaining so much because you're gaining their joy, they you're encouraging the evolution of another person by recognizing their great qualities, yeah. Partly what we say in the book, too, about how lovers and partners should spend time, real time, praising each other. It's part we do that in our mystical relationships with God. Why don't we do it in our mystical human relationships? Just I want you to know what you give me. I want you to see your beauty in the mirror of my heart. And I want to see my beauty in the mirror of your heart so that I can live it even more comprehensively and richly every day.

SPEAKER_02 34:18

One of my favorite things to do, and I was teaching a course up in Sudbury and Laurentian University once to a bunch of project managers, and I was talking to them about how acknowledgement can be used to really build teams. And I said, you know, something very powerful to do is to ask someone what they want to be acknowledged for. And they were kind of looked at me and they were like, I'm like, when was the last time anyone ever asked you? What do you like? We we if we do acknowledge people, typically we acknowledge them for what we see. But like, and I and it's very can Andrew, people are very confronted by this. Most human beings who have, and so one of my students went home that night and talked to his nine-year-old son, and he was like trying it on, and he's like, you know, what like what do you want to be acknowledged for? And his son looked literally looked at him like he had a third eye. Um, he's like, What are you talking about, Dad? And he said, Well, I I always acknowledge you for the things that I like about you, like that you're a good student, you help your mom, like, but like I want to know, like, what do you want to be, what do you want me to acknowledge you for? And his son stopped and thought about it. And then he said, I want to be acknowledged for the fact that I love building things and I'm good at building things. Wow. Like, and in that moment, the father discovered something about his son that he may never have known about him. He may never have gone his whole life and not known that it was important to his son to be acknowledged for being creative and being someone who could build things, you know. And I just think that there's so much power in honoring and acknowledging and in being willing to and like to put yourself out there and be vulnerable. I'm I remember I said to Chris a little while ago, I said, you know, I just wanted to thank you. Because until meeting you, I didn't actually have any real life, um, like real life evidence for that the kind of man I want to be in a relationship actually exists in the world. And I know that you and I are not in a romantic relationship, but that you exist, that I've met you, that you're tangible. Now I know that it's it it became it becomes possible in a whole way. And it takes vulnerability sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 36:26

They're here, they're certainly in the younger generation, and there are certainly that I've met men in their 40s and 50s who are ready, I believe, for a true relationship with an empowered woman. I've they're here, they're just not many of them yet, but they hang in there, they're they they will get bored with all the other versions of love and they will need, especially as the situation gets worse, which of course it's going to, to really have true meeting of the heart, mind, soul, and body.

SPEAKER_02 36:58

So, Andrew, I you know, I had a conversation with my son a little while ago, and he said, you know, because part of Matthew's what he wants to create in the world is a world where men don't harm women and children anymore, like the changing the conversation about what it is to be a man in the world. And he said, But you know, Mama, I really feel like like the the anger of feminism and the and the attacking that comes from women sometimes. He goes, I'm not making it wrong, but I just don't think like men tune that out. So as women who are committed to men, like I want men to know love like this. You know, I want men to be able to experience their feminine and not have it be something that's you know wrong or makes them less of a man. Like, how can we as women create, you know, like what are what's what how can we engage in a conversation with men that creates an opening for them, you know, versus maybe sometimes what could be perceived as I think the I remember once having dinner.

SPEAKER_01 37:56

I had a great friend called Gloria Vanderbilt, she was my most beloved friend for 20 years, and we were deeply soul lovers, really. She was amused, she was everything. And I asked this question of Gloria over dinner once, and she said, women have to lead from full love of their own deepest feminine. Because what a man, a man will never be changed by being attacked, he will just resist. Because if you attack a man, she said, you're doing exactly the wrong thing, you're just activating his own defense of his own dignity. Never destroy a man's dignity, just radiate clear, tender, deep permission to the man to be open and vulnerable. And you have to be patient, but any man who's got an evolved spirit will realize that his woman is giving him that, and he will come towards it because that's what he's truly, deeply looking for. And I think I wish I could tell that to all my feminist friends. I I love feminism is an immensely important movement, but and Gloria was a feminist, a very passionate feminist, and a very brave and pioneering feminist as an entrepreneur, and she had public love affairs with African Americans and was thrown out of her condos. I mean, she was a brave girl, but she knew the secret. She knew that a woman the ultimate seduction for a man is a woman who is utterly secure in the radiance of her own family, and with to radiate it calmly and not threaten the man in his insecurity, but bolster him, help him see how wonderful it would be if only he could be vulnerable and open enough to loving and adoring a woman like that. That's beautiful. Does it make sense to you?

SPEAKER_02 40:08

It does. Yeah, no, it really does. And she said certainly it's about holding space for something. Like what I hear in that is like versus like trying to, because I spent a lot of my life trying to force outcomes with people uh inside of my own, you know, insecurities and need to try and fix, like not deal with me, but fix other people so that I could like feel validated and feel worthy, right? So I'm very intimately aware that trying to force outcomes with people or force people to discover something rarely ever works. And if it does, it it doesn't produce kind of the results that one might hope for. But what a hearing you're speaking is this idea of like, I'm holding space for something, and it's like an invitation for another, whether it's a romantic love or like anything to as a woman, you have the ultimate power.

SPEAKER_01 41:01

The ultimate power is the power of the mother, the ultimate power of the universe is the mother. A woman is the most an enlightened, powerful, embodied woman is the most powerful force of change on the planet, and that kind of power can change everything. So it's when women truly come to know that that they will know they don't have to assert their power against man or humiliate men to have that power. They're already got it. They're already it. They are the living holograms of the mother. And the women who know that are the women who calmly, quietly, and sometimes very flamboyantly rule the world.

SPEAKER_03 41:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:49

And get men to do exactly what they want because the men are so grateful to be in the presence of a woman who is so loving and so encouraging without in any way giving up her power because she is her power. It's not returning to the old way of just encouraging and loving and supporting men. No, no, no, it's women claiming that divine power and radiating that and intoxicating the insecure and rattled male with the beauty and power of the family. So the male can then radiate the beauty and the power of the true sacred masculine, which is never dominating and always protecting and tender and utterly, utterly devoted to the family. That's the way forward.

SPEAKER_02 42:43

I feel like I could talk to you forever, Andrew. And there are so many things I wanted to touch on. This conversation has been so beautiful and perfect and exactly as it should have been. And um, who knows, maybe there'll be other opportunities to talk about your amazing work that you do in Sacred Activism and the other things that you're up to.

SPEAKER_01 43:01

But anybody can go to my website and Andrewovy.net, and they can, if they sign up, they'll get nine hours of me reading Sacred Activism, my book, The Hope, but for free.

SPEAKER_02 43:12

So I just got my hands on it. I've already downloaded it to my phone. So I'm excited to go for walks with you and learn learn more from you. Um for just thank you. This conversation, you know, and I don't know, I'm I'm sure for the people who listen to it, they'll they'll get exactly what they need because that's how life works. You get what you need when you're ready for it. Um, but for me, uh, this conversation has just like created an opening and given a permission to love myself at a whole new, you know, an even deeper level. And and just uh, you know, thank you for for who you are. Thank you for all of the work that you've done. I want to acknowledge you for all of the work you've done on your own journey to to discover yourself, your own masculine and feminine, and and and not just discover it and and keep it for yourself, but really be someone.

SPEAKER_01 44:05

Because I think what evolution is calling us all to is wholly androgyny. You're in a woman's body, I'm in a man's body. But if we become truly awake and evolved, we become male and female in a unified way with our own unique purposes behind that unity, and that's the next level of human evolution. And holy androgynes love each other, whether they are male or female, they recognize each other and they go to another level of profound friendship, and that's also what's happening on the planet, and you can see it in these young men because all the young men I'm meeting are straight, but they have the profoundest love affairs with their friends and with their women friends, and they're very evolved in their feminine, they don't want to be macho, they want to be loved and to love, and they're completely in they enjoy their masculine, but they're not vain about it. It's astonishing, it's coming, it's here, it's the next wave, we're writing it.

SPEAKER_02 45:20

Thank you for everything that you have done and contributed to that wave being here and to our ability to experience. Thank you for the book. Uh, thank you for your time today. For everyone listening, you'll be able to find out how to connect with Andrew in the show notes. And just thank you for being a part of this conversation with us today.

SPEAKER_01 45:37

My great pleasure.

SPEAKER_00 45:40

Thank you so much for joining us for this week's episode. For show info, visit what wouldamberdo.com. And for information about Amber Howard and Associates' offerings and services, visit AmberHowardinc.com.