SPEAKER_01 0:14

We bring you incredible guests who share their real life experiences of being an entrepreneur so you can have your whole life work. Now, here's your host, Amber Howard.

SPEAKER_00 0:26

Good morning, everyone. Welcome back to What Would Amber Do? It is my pleasure this morning to be speaking with Mitch Gray. Mitch is a leadership and personal development guide, speaker, author, and host of the Mitch Gray Show. Mitch leverages his decades of leading teams as a business owner, manager, pastor, nonprofit founder, and community organizer to empower leaders so that they can empower their people. Thank you so much for being on the show this morning, Mitch.

SPEAKER_02 1:00

Thanks, Amber. I'm excited for this conversation. So yeah, let's go.

SPEAKER_00 1:05

Yeah, me too. And you're joining me from Albuquerque, is that right?

SPEAKER_02 1:08

Yeah, New Mexico. Yep. Amazing. In the US, for those that don't know where that is.

SPEAKER_00 1:15

So great. So, Mitch, talk to me a little bit. How does one go? I mean, out of all of the jobs that you've had, clearly you've had quite an interesting career before you became an entrepreneur and created, you know, Mitch Gray Media and all of the other things that you're up to. One of the things particularly that I'm interested in is like, you know, how does one go from being a pastor to being an entrepreneur? What was that journey like for you?

SPEAKER_02 1:41

Yeah, um, long and interesting and um sometimes messy and sometimes all the time beautiful, even in the mess. Um so I kind of have to start from the beginning, I suppose. All I wanted to do since I was 10 years old was be a pastor. That was, you know, I tell people all the time, everyone has a dream or multiple dreams. And the tricky part about dreams or ambition or purpose or whatever is you can only reconcile that with your current perspective in life. And so for me, what that looked like was my my dream was always, since I was a kid, um, to inspire people, to help people, to encourage people. Um, I remember being on the playground in elementary school, and someone would fall down and get hurt, and my heart of compassion and empathy for them to help them, if they were crying, to help them not cry, you know, just that heart of empathy and of humanity that I've always had. I didn't choose it. It's just in my DNA. I grew up in a religious culture, and so going back to that statement of reconciling dreams with perspective and reality, in my culture, what those uh kind of needs and those desires for humanity kind of resulted in was you became a pastor, you became a preacher because that that was the occupation where you helped people, right? And so for me as a 10-year-old kid, that was my path. Um, I had an uncle that was in ministry. Really, he was the only one in my family at the time that was in ministry. I didn't come from a family of preachers like a lot of my friends did. I didn't come from you know that that background professionally, but I had an uncle who was a youth pastor, and I just loved the life I saw him live and the way he was able to impact um kids and parents and families. And so as I grew into teenagerhood, it was like, yeah, that became even more emblazoned within me was to become bad. And um, so yeah, I mean, through my journey, that's what I went to school for. I went to school to for uh biblical studies and child psychology because I knew there was something. Psychology was kind of my my backdrop if I had to make a shift. Um, and then I I went to seminary, worked in ministry for a few years, got really burned out. Seminary, for those that don't know, is normally a bachelor's degree in two years. So it's Monday through Friday, eight to five. And I had a family at the time as well. So I was also working full-time. So at the end of two years, I was done, right? I was like, okay, I I need time to breathe, just to work hard to provide for my family. And I lucked out, actually got two job offers at once. I had done retail part-time in high school, loved it. So I applied at the gap clothing store, and then I applied with another high-fashioned retail store called the Buckle. And I got offered both jobs. I actually took the job at the Gap first, and it was part-time. And then a day later, the Buckle called and said, We want to offer you a full-time job. But when you have a family, you take a full-time job, right? I didn't have time to mess around. And over the next five years, um, I really fell in love with business. I really fell in love with leadership from a different paradigm than just ministry. Because, you know, I'm I'm what, 21, 22 years old at the time, so still really young. And all of a sudden, um, you know, without going into a lot of crazy depth, I started seeing this different world because my world until then was always church work, ministry. My dad was a director of a children's home, so it was all kind of ministry-related stuff. And so for the first time, I was like, wow, there's a whole different world that exists. So I go back to that saying, you can really only reconcile things with your current perspective. And until you shift that perspective, you can't really change that reconciliation of what you feel inside. And so I had a I had a great manager that I um I worked with, and within six months of starting that job at the Buckle, they gave me my own store, multi-million dollar store. So now I was hiring people, I was having to learn to fire people, I was having to learn to develop people, recruit people, all new stuff, and it was so amazing. Um, I still had a heart for ministry, so five years later I quit uh Buckle. I went back into ministry. That was probably my favorite job I've ever had, and I got fired three years later. And so that's really to really kind of have that baseline and come back to the question specifically. That's really when I started reconsidering what would my life look like if I inspired people, empowered people, led people from a different platform in life and ministry. And so all I knew again was business. And so my dad and I went into business together. That was kind of my first toe in the water of entrepreneurialism. Um, we had some really great success, we had some really great failures, and through that I just learned, you know, this is what it looks like. Here's how I can reach people. And it wasn't an easy journey, you know. When you when you have a dream as a young person, that becomes kind of the spiritual partnership with yourself. And to relinquish that takes a ton of healing and a ton of work and a ton of self-denial and a ton of getting over self-rejection and getting over other people's opinions. You know, when I was my religious, my religious world then was very um conservative, like incredibly conservative. And I would have people tell me when I was in high fashion retail, you know, how how can you sell to drug dealers? You need to be preaching, you're not a clothes, you know, salesperson, like kind of while they were in their way trying to help, but sometimes those voices from other people's help, in quotes, can really start building up this crazy work that you're gonna have to do later within yourself. And so that was last in uh 2005. It really took me until about 2015, about 10 year, a 10-year journey to be okay with leaving that past behind, fully stepping into what I do now. And to be totally honest, actually creating even more powerful and expansive work than I ever could have before. But it's it's not for the faint of heart, right? It's a lot easier to sit in a job for 30 years and never have any experience outside of just one consistent world. And so I understand why a lot of people don't want to step out. I get it, because it takes a lot of it takes a different type of courage and a different type of bravery to let go of dreams, to move past your culture of your childhood, to move past the culture that your family had for generations and totally go a different direction. Um, and so, yes, at this point, I absolutely love impacting the people that I never would have been able to impact before, working with people I never would have been able to work with before. So that's the journey. And I think there's I I give you that whole story because I think there's so many valuable lessons um for all of us to really kind of reflect on. And everyone has a story, right? Everyone has a journey, and it's just taking the time to sit with that and to go, okay, where have I been? Where am I now? Where would I like to go? And what does that really look like? Really unpacking that and not sitting with it in a way that's critical, but sitting with it in a way that's learning and going, you know, the person I told a friend the other day, the person I am now, if I sat across the table having a cup of coffee from the person I was 25 years ago, it would not have been a pretty conversation because they're two totally different people, and that's a beautiful thing. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:44

Oh Mitch, so much gold. I'm like, I'm like, what do I where do I start? What do I say? You know, um, first, I love what you said, the spiritual partnership with self. Because I I too, I think, you know, I I if I remember correctly in our first conversation, I think we when when we met and got connected through the fantastic Christian. Again, thank you, Christian, for continuing to connect me with like incredible like-minded human beings. Just gotta have that shout out to him. And uh, I know you feel the same way, Mitch, about about him. But you know, I too am someone who from a very young age, I don't even know why, but I just always felt like I was put on this planet for a mighty purpose. And part of my journey has been like that, that's always been there. And then I've thought I had it, and I thought I knew what it was, and it's like, oh no, not that, not quite that. And and I love what you said, you can only reconcile it from where you are and from like the world of neurolinguistic programming. Like we would say we have a map of the world. Every one of us has a map of the world inside of our own mind that shapes how we perceive the so-called reality in which we live. And that map, you know, if we choose to, as you clearly have, we can keep expanding that map. And life becomes really cool when you actually embrace the idea that everyone has their own map. And it's like we're all working from we're all working from from different maps. And so it's not like if I if I choose to believe, and I do, like if we choose to believe and I do for myself, that my map is constantly being filtered by my past experiences and my perspective where I'm standing right now, then it's not a matter of like we know the map is filtered always.

unknown 11:34

Right.

SPEAKER_00 11:34

So it's not a map, it's not a question of whether my view of reality is right or not. It's a matter of whether my view of reality is serving me. And if it's not serving me, then I can create something newly, right? Uh and then it's like so I just think that's so beautiful. And I and when you were sharing about your experience, because I too was raised in you know a religious home with both of my parents um, you know, baptized at 14. And and then I, you know, my mom was on the eldership of the church that we were a part of when I got pregnant at 16 and dropped out of high school. Uh, you can imagine how some of that all went um without getting into the heartwrenching painful detail for everyone. And shout out to my mom, because a woman is incredible. You know, it's it takes something to hear from your daughter who had big dreams for the future and was gonna be a lawyer and take on the world, you know, because that was from my view at the time, what I thought it looked like to fulfill on what I, you know, what I thought I was here for. Um, oh, by the way, mom, I you know, I dropped out of high school and I'm pregnant. You're gonna be a grandmother. Yay. Um but I remember like I was in a youth group, like you talk about like like defining moments in that journey of like, you know, and I and I walked away from my my faith for a while, like organized religion. And I still would consider myself a spiritual person, not necessarily part of any organized faith. And I had this moment when I was uh at a youth group, I think I was like 14 years old, and we were asked to give like a speak, like speak each week. Each one of us was given an opportunity to give a talk. And I had prepared my whole talk, and then I went to school that day, and I went into like a Kentucky fried chicken to get lunch on my break, and the a homeless person came in and asked for a glass of water, and the owner wouldn't give him one, refused to give this human being a glass of water, and I was just indignant, like I was just like enraged, indignant, like you know, and so I all fired up and impassioned. I go to my youth group that night and I gave this like impassioned, like from the gut, impassioned speech about why God calls us to give. And I was met by a very righteous, you know, and this I share this moment, Mitch, because it actually shaped my views of authority, like so much of like the way I used to engage with other people and my own needs to be right about my points of view. I feel like I had to like defend them fiercely for a long time in my life. Because here I was, 14, engaged in this, like it wasn't even a debate, it was an argument with you know, this man in his 20s who was saying, no, God doesn't like if you give money to a uh a homeless person and they use it for drugs, that's your sin. And I was standing there fiercely defending, no, God calls us to give. And it's like whatever the person does with that gift, you know, and and again, not it's not about whether I was right or he was right, but more about like what I heard in your sharing is we have beliefs. And then it's like if we we hold like if we hold those, we get attached to those beliefs, whether it's about what the future looks like, what it looks like to fulfill on our purpose, you know, what are our beliefs about what's right or wrong about the world, right? Um then we this is like I think at the source of why human beings get stuck.

SPEAKER_02 15:14

Yes, yes, yeah. And it is that attachment, right? I love, I love that you use that word. It's I I want to go back to the mapping because one thing that that came to mind um when I listen to people talk often have these like kind of picturesque visions as you're talking. And if you've ever if you've ever and I don't know where to find them, maybe museums or I don't know, I don't know where I know I've seen them in person, but there's there's these maps that kind of show the development of time, and so like the base map sitting on a table will be from like 300 years ago, and so there's not very much on the map, right? And then there'll be another layer that you can put on top of that map that kind of shows 50 years later, and then another layer that you put on top of that map that shows maybe 50 years later. So after you're looking at this, you've got eight or 10 layers of the map, and usually the top layers are clear or different colors, so you can see the development underneath, and that's very much symbolic of what we're talking about is our base layer map is very simple and it's normally attached to the choices we weren't able to make because we were kids. You know, we can't control what we're taught, what we learn until a certain age. That development is so powerful. Everything our parents teach us, our environment teaches us, our influencers, like that youth pastor you were talking to, all of those elements have that's our baseline map. And then we get to be, you know, 12, 13, 14 years old, and we start hearing kids at school talk about sex and see them smoking cigarettes in the bathroom back in the day or whatever. And now all of a sudden, those experiences bring another layer that we never knew existed. And so to me, the beautiful thing is when you look at those layers of that mapping, and neurologically, it's really the same way. The problem we have is when we're only so focused on the current map that we've never dealt with the baseline stuff. Yeah, that's really where the damage takes place. Is that you know, that's really at its foundational level, just denial. It's like we're not gonna deal with that, we don't want to work through that. And I think that's really what becomes damaging is a we allow fear to consume us, and we say, Well, I could never draw another layer of the map. So we don't give ourselves that self-permission to take action on something new. And the second thing that becomes terribly damaging is we just simply don't reconcile that baseline experience, that baseline map. So we don't go back to our parents and say, look, I love you, but why did you teach me this? I'll never forget the I'll never I will never forget the first time I had the courage to go back to my dad, who is my my family are incredibly loving people. But I went to my dad and I I I am the the people pleaser at heart. I I will stay away from confrontation as much as possible. Now I've learned to deal with that a little bit, but I finally summoned the courage to go back to my dad when I was wrestling with all this. I like you, I moved away totally from the religion of my childhood. I have moved into different themes. But I finally, when I was wrestling with all that, I finally went to my dad and I said, Daddy, you really effed me up like bad. And I didn't know what response I was gonna get, but I knew I had to do that for myself. I had to make that statement for myself. And for the first time in my life, really, I stood up for myself and I said, This stuff it's made me deal with mental health, it's made me deal with depression, it's made me deal with all these things that for me are terribly unhealthy. You you had a part in that. And he looked at me with a tear in his eye. My dad, I've never really seen him cry, and just tears running down his eyes, and he just said, I'm sorry. Because you're right, I didn't know any better, but you're right, and I'm struggling with that. All of a sudden, if we pulled back those layers of the map and at those moments review and reflect on our baseline, we can see the lines changing. Because those baseline experiences are all of a sudden now truly being reshaped. And I want to come back to this in a little bit when we get into leadership, because leaders need to understand this is the exact behavior they need to take action on, where whoever they're leading, whatever work industry they're in. Human behavior never changes, it manifests differently. But the basic human needs and the basic human desires of wanting to be loved, of wanting to have purpose, of wanting to be a part of a community, those have been the same from the beginning of whatever time looked like in the beginning. Those don't change.

SPEAKER_00 20:16

Well, it's you know, again, so much of what you said, Mitch, you know, like that baseline, this is why, you know, this is where the breakdown is with what most human beings experience in life because we relate to ourselves like we're fixed.

unknown 20:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:32

Whatever we create, whatever.

SPEAKER_02 20:34

Or broken or broken.

SPEAKER_00 20:35

Well, yeah, and you know, what I mean by fixed is like we're an object.

SPEAKER_02 20:39

Oh, yes, right?

SPEAKER_00 20:40

Like fixed, like we're an object. And so it's like I have this identity. Amber is like driven and nice and rebellious, like all ways of being that I created, this identity that I created in order to be able to survive things that happen. And in my case, it is survival. It doesn't even have to be that you went through traumatic experiences. And whatever you went through in life, whatever your experiences, you started to relate. And I love having this conversation with parents who have young children because I ask them, right? Like, I, you know, especially if they have kids that are under the age of seven and then kids that are so, and like as we get older, we become less expressed, we're less free, we're, you know, we start to develop this personality, this identity. Well, we didn't start out in life that way. We started out in life with every way of being available to us. And then in order to be able to manage the experiences of life, whatever they were, we start to fix an identity, right? We start to form that base map. And then we become attached to this idea that that's who we are. That right, and then we kill off other ways of being. If I'm if I'm a serious person, then I can't be foolish, I can't be silly, I can't be playful and fun because who I am, how I relate to myself. As an object in a world of objects is that way, right? So it's like to get that and go and and yeah, and have those conversations. And I, you know, I remember a conversation I had. So we came to Canada when I was 10. It was a and without going into all of the gruesome details, it was a hugely traumatic time in my family's life. And my brother was sent back to New Zealand, you know, and this is like when you go back to talking with your parents, checking things out with them. And I love what Louise Hay says about this. Like, you know, don't be so quick to blame your parents. They did the best they, you know, we're all victims of victims, like those generational curses of belimiting beliefs that are handed down from one generation to the next. Yes. And they do the best they can with what they know. And and I remember, so my brother gets sent back to New Zealand. I'm here alone with my mom. And and you know, in in the rearview mirror of life, we can see all of the reasons why those things happened and how they were unfolding for the best. But a couple of years ago, I went back to my mom and I said, Mom, like, why didn't I get sent back to New Zealand? Like, why did Chris go back and I stayed here? And she goes, Well, the school never called about you, Amber. So the school had called to express a concern about my brother's well-being. Right. And so the decision was made for him to go back to New Zealand. But the school never called about me. Well, the school never would have called about me because my personality was such that no one, even if I had been struggling, they never would have seen it.

SPEAKER_02 23:37

Right. Right. Right.

SPEAKER_00 23:39

So, and and and in that moment when she said those words, well, the school never called about you. Like, I just got like wow.

SPEAKER_04 23:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:46

Like that, like we make decisions from the place where we're standing today. And we can look back at hindsight and his children to their parents, and God knows, like I'm constantly having conversations with my children, you know, just continually, and and just saying the door is always open to you. If you ever need to come back to me as you go through your journey of self-discovery and peeling back the layers and dealing with what you know, the door is always, I will never say, like, I will never deny your experience.

SPEAKER_03 24:15

Right.

SPEAKER_00 24:16

And not be open to hearing your experience. So I, you know, I think it's that's the gift really of being people like to me, personal development is a lifestyle, whatever you want to call it, philosophy, inquiring. This is this is just how I get to live my life. I'm blessed to live my life, is to be someone who's not stuck with a base map. Right. And I get to keep expanding and you know, like creating new territories and like getting to the edge of my map and getting confronted by the edge of my map, and then going, okay, well, I know there's something beyond the edge of this map. What's up, what else is out there for me to discover about me, about human beings, about life?

SPEAKER_02 24:56

Yeah, it's um so I love driving through the mountains, right? And and every single time I drive through the mountains, this is my thought. Could you imagine being a village 2000 years ago on one side of the mountain? And you woke up every morning and you went to deal with your animals or plow your field by hand or whatever, and you look up to that mountain and you go, gosh, I wonder what's on the other side of that mountain, but we can't go there. We can't go there because we've been told that on the other side of the mountain is danger because it's unknown. We don't know what lies on the other side of the mountain, so we can't go there. So four or five or six generations never go to the other side of the mountain, and they struggle, and maybe the rainfall doesn't come, etc. etc. Yet on the other side of the mountain is a more plush land or the ocean or a new way of transportation that's being created. But four or five, six generations never went to the other side of the mountain because it was the unknown. And that always that always comes to mind when I drive through the mountains, is it's like that's life, right? It's like we all we're always going to see these gigantic mountains surrounding us or even valleys, and we get to choose are we going to summon the courage and the wisdom and the experience to say, well, that is the unknown, but there's nothing to fear, because most likely there's something even greater in possibility on the other side of the mountain. It's just I have to build the endurance and the commitment and the diligence to get to the other side of the mountain. I always told my kids, we're driving on the highway in the mountains. And I'm like, at one point, this highway didn't exist. And all these thousands of people are driving down this highway constantly, but everyone forgets the guy that first carved out the highway. Like some person, lady, man, whoever, some person at one point went, I want to get to the other side and I'm gonna take my horse and carriage and I'm gonna build a road. Do you think that everyone in the village looked at that person like you're crazy? Why would you ever do that? But we forget, we forget the trailblazers and the mavericks. And so my thing to people always is the only trailblazer and maverick that matters in your life is you. You get to make create that next layer of the map however you want. And you mentioned in the beginning of this the art of empowerment. That's really the art of empowerment. The art of empowerment begins internally. It's what are you giving yourself permission and building the courage to do? What's on the other side of the mountain, and how are you going to get there? And how much fun is it gonna be to stand at the peak and go, wow, I get to do this now? Awesome. That's where the art of empowerment begins. And I actually fully believe for people in leadership roles, I think you're gonna really struggle empowering others until you've empowered yourself. Because it's just it's just a facade until there.

SPEAKER_00 28:11

It's like you're trying to fill other people's cup up from an empty vessel, right? Or it's like, you know, yeah, a hundred percent. And and what I was when you were sharing, Mitch was like just really present to myself the importance of faith and confidence in in that journey. And in, you know, it's like for the people in the village who looked at the person who was creating the first road, and it's like, or like, you know, I love I love the Wright Brothers, right? Like everyone thought they were crazy until they had the first man flight. And once they got that confidence, no one could take that away from them. Like that knowing, and I think faith is the more faith we have in whatever's sourceful for us, whether it's God or the universe or you know, a teletubby, like I don't, you know, not to diminish it, but also like what's sourceful for each of us as human beings. I think this is a deeply personal conversation. Um, you know, the more faith we have, the more confidence we have. Because, and that we get to have that deep knowing that no matter what, like and I invite people, like when I work with them and stuff, to say, like, look back at the track record of your life. Like, you've got a hundred percent track record of it working out. Now, it may not have always looked the way you wanted it to, but it and if you choose to believe, as I do, that life is always unfolding for my greatest good, and it's so amazing because I have these like cards, and it's I still haven't taken it down. They're from the uh inspired by a course of miracles. And the card is like, I do not perceive my own best interests. And on the back it says, What could you not accept if but you knew that everything that happens, all events past, present, and to come, are gently planned by one whose only purpose is your good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And not like that's some truth, right? That you have to believe, but like it could be like a place to like if I chose to walk through life believing that, then no matter what happens today, whether it goes the way I wanted it to or not, whether something happens, it's like if I choose to stand and everything is unfolding for my greatest good, then then I get to be in life looking for the gifts. And even when things don't go the way I wanted them to, and I think this is very important for leaders because as leaders, things almost never go the way that you're all like you have your strategy, you have your plan, you have the way you think it's gonna go, and then life happens. No, and I, you know, as a project manager, I constantly say to my teams, like, they'll be like, Oh, I don't know if we're gonna get this on time, or I don't know if this order is gonna, and I'm like, I only talk about what I want, and I want it to all work out. So let's just like keep our eye on that, right? But when you can be out in life, that it's all unfolding for the greatest good for for not just me, but for everyone that my life touches, yeah, then it's just a different conversation in life. I think it's like it's not even the same, it's just a different conversation.

SPEAKER_02 31:13

Well, we started this conversation talking about perspective, and and that's the most valuable shift that takes place when you know you say, I I have faith and full belief that everything is going to work out for my good, you know in reality that life happens, right? You have a you have a uh a tire blowout in your car, or you spill your coffee, or you know, a child gets sick, or whatever. Um, but when your perspective is everything works for my good, you now all of a sudden have this perspective that says, okay, so whatever comes my way, I can now tackle that, face that, or embrace that with a totally different alignment than if the sky is falling or just happenstance. And that becomes a really that becomes a really powerful thing. You know, I I want to go back to what you touched on about how you know you're you're looking at the mountain and about the or the Wright brothers building a plane and their confidence built. Really, your confidence builds when you build a plane and you finally get the engine to start. Like you're not in the air, but you at least got the engine to start. And so building steps of success are so pivotal. You can't bite off the whole thing at once, whether you're building something to be successful or you're facing a challenge in life. You'll never buy, you can't you can't tackle it all at once, you can't swallow it, ingest it, comprehend it all at once. And so, you know, go back to the mountain analogy. If you're facing this huge mountain, someone might look and go, I could never climb up there. But then someone else may go, Well, I'm gonna take 10 steps a day, and I'm gonna add 10 steps to that. And pretty soon, over you know, a month's time, they're halfway up the mountain. And it's just learning those steps of success internally. And then if you're in a leadership position, how can you build measurable steps of success for your team? That that's what feeds confidence. You know, people say, Well, I don't have confidence, and my rebuttal is, well, how what small steps of success are you taking today? Because if you take those small steps every single day, pretty soon you're gonna look back again and go, Wow, you didn't even realize how far you've gone. And then your confidence just soars again with the Wright brothers. You know, they built a wing and they built something that looked like they thought would look like a plane, and you're right, their confidence soared, but that confidence doesn't happen overnight. I I read some study recently about how many flights they tried to take before it actually worked, and how they were really lucky that they didn't die because it was it was just insane what was happening, right? And so, and and it's all it's you know, we think about that with inventors. Like that's an easy analogy with inventors, but it's like, what about our everyday life? If you if you want to get in better shape, go to the gym for five minutes, do five push-ups, change your diet just for breakfast. If you want to be a better leader with your team, just start by saying thank you every day. Those small steps are so tangible, so palatable, and that's what's gonna reshape that confidence.

SPEAKER_00 34:22

Well, and and I think it starts with like commitment, willingness, and a decision, right? Like it's like I don't know, I may not know how to get to the top of that mountain, but I'm going to the top of the mountain. And first you've got to decide from wherever you are with whatever your world looks like, and and the resources aren't gonna be there. You if you if the resources were there to have what what's next for you in your life, then you'd already have it. So you've got to make the decision from where I am right now, you know. And I I love sharing, like I'm going on like the trip of my dreams. I leave November 1st, find a Bali for 10 days to stay in a tree house. I've been putting this trip off forever because I was waiting for the like romantic relationship of my dreams to show up, and then I'd go in the bali. I'm like, I'm not doing that anymore. I don't know, maybe I'm supposed to meet him on a beach in Bali. Who knows? But I'm going. And then from Bali, I fly to New Zealand and I'm gonna do a working holiday back home in New Zealand for three months. And I have no idea. Like, I don't know how to work 16 hours ahead in the future and still maintain all of my commitments here. I don't know how to teach at the University of Toronto. Like, you know, I don't know all of the how and I know it's possible, and I have the confidence in myself, which has, again, to your point, been built up over time because this is not the first time I've thrown my hat over the wall for something that's really important to me in life and something that I want with no idea how to accomplish it. And it took, you know, the more you do that, the more you, you know, and this is why when people start to talk about you get to have an ever-expanding life, it's like, because I keep throwing my hat over the wall for things that I want with no idea how to have them. And then in that process of chasing the hat, I I I expand, I develop new skills, new levels of awareness, new resources. But but first I've got to be willing to say, I want that, and I don't know how to get to the top of the mountain, but I'm gonna go. And then you start to take the steps, and then you start to take the steps, and then things show up. And I think that's a spiritual part of life is that once we've decided the resources, the people, the mentors. And yeah, even I'm booking my flights for this trip. And right now, I actually only have a flight to Bali, and I only have I don't have a flight back home to New Zealand. And and I went to book my other flights, and for whatever reason they didn't work. And in the past, I would have gotten really frustrated by that, right? I would have been like, you know, like stupid technology, and I work in MT a lot of the time, but I would have gotten really, and I was like, I was like, okay, whatever, you know, it's fine. I've got time, I'll get to it later. Well, it turns out that if I booked those flights on my Canadian passport, I wouldn't have been able to get into New Zealand because they're only accepting accepting citizens back home right now. And I don't have my New Zealand passport because I haven't had one since I left New Zealand when I was a little kid. So it's like, oh, you know, thank you, Universe, for not letting me book that flight. And then, you know, I was only planning on going for like two months. So then I talked to my brother and find out well, if you stay for 90 days, the New Zealand government will cover your quarantine. Oh, well, I can stay in New Zealand for an extra month. So everything, like if I choose to stand there and just let things unfold and give up, and and this has been a big one for me. And I think it's still as a woman, as a leader, as a mom, like just everywhere in my life, giving up that need to control and have things go my way. I think it was a long time in life before I could even say the word surrender without choking on it. Um, and the more I choose to be someone who listens to my intuition and believes, like choose the frame that life's unfolding for my greatest good, I get to experience the wonder in life.

SPEAKER_02 38:09

Yes, yes. Yeah, yeah, and control's a crazy thing, right? It it stems from a few things. I I personally think the largest thing that control stumps from because it's uncomfortable when we do things that are out of our control. And it when we begin, you know, sometimes you do it enough and you kind of start thriving on that. It's like, well, I want to try something else, you know, because it really makes you come alive when you have the right perspective and you realize I really can't control most of what happens in life. Like I can't control anyone else. I can control what happens in here. And depending on your health in life, some, you know, for me, I battled mental health and depression. And some days I'm like, I can't even control what happens in like I don't even know what's going on right now. And so, but I I think that that real will to say, well, I want to be able to control everything, you know. I think one thing that that feeds that is convenience and comfortability. Um, because we like the convenience for most of us living in the world, we like the comfortability, we like the routine, or we like whatever it is. And when you start stretching whatever that is, you know, for some people, it's a routine before the show we were talking about waking up. You know, I know people that if they don't wake up at their certain time, it damages their whole day and it's done. It's like it's not a major deal, but for them it is, and talking about perspective, and so it's like when that routine starts getting stretched, or when life happens, we really start grasping at straws to control it because it's so uncomfortable, it's so unknown, and it's like, well, how do we get past that? And I think it goes back to everything we've been saying, it's really taking those small steps. And I want to tie this into leadership. Um, unfortunately, leadership is kind of a position that people really like to control things, they like to control behaviors, they like to control results. And I remember not long ago telling a business leader, you can't control your sales results. You can do everything within your power to create positive sales results. But at the end of the day, you have no control if people choose to walk through your door or not. Zero control. And she was like, Well, yeah, but we've done advertising and we've done social media. This I'm like, it doesn't matter. You can spend $10 billion a year on the greatest advertising in social media and have the greatest product in the world. But if people choose to not walk in your door, that is completely out of your control. And so my point to her was stop focusing on controlling things and just simply focus on preparation for success so that when the moment appears, you are prepared to take advantage of that moment, you are ready and you're aligned with yourself, with your team, with your customer, with your message. All of it is in alignment. Because I believe, like you, when you are prepared and when you've given yourself that permission and you've empowered your people and everything is in alignment, guess what's gonna happen? Results. Because oftentimes results for success don't happen because people aren't prepared for it, they just aren't. And I believe that is a I do believe that's kind of a universal uh principle that you can't receive what you're not prepared to receive. It's just it's impossible. Opportunity, the same opportunities people get today existed previously, it's just that awareness and reception wasn't there.

SPEAKER_00 41:50

Yeah, I I I agree, Mitch. And I think it's like not just like because so much of it is a focus on the external preparation. Yeah. And I think the most important thing is the internal preparation.

SPEAKER_02 42:04

100%.

SPEAKER_00 42:06

Yes, you know, I I spent the first, you know, I've kind of been really heavily, I mean, I've always loved learning, but I've probably been really heavily into personal and professional development since um 2011 for the last 10 years. And the first half of that was really like professional, like so getting certifications, getting, you know, training, data management, business analysis, project management, all of these kind of things. And then since 2016, it really shifted over to the personal development side, which to me is like the application I studied philosophy in university, and it's like this the application of philosophy to the living of life, right? Like, how do we actually apply all of this wisdom from you know, from all of these incredible, incredibly wise people who have shared their lived experiences with us and what they've discovered for their lived experience? Well, how do we actually take that and apply that to the living of our own life? And one of the things that I've really discovered is I can give a leader the, you know, I can partner with them to create the best strategy for how to move their company forward. And if they, in their subconscious mind, relate to themselves as a failure and not worthy of success, good luck with that.

SPEAKER_02 43:21

Forget it, forget it. Yeah, right?

SPEAKER_00 43:23

Because they're they're they're not a match, they're not aligned. For and this is that cognitive dissonance. Like we can say in our conscious mind, we can express through generative language what we want. And some of us can't even do that because we're just so like there's there's so many blocks around being able to express, like, only Hannah, as human beings, how difficult is it for us just to like express our authentic desires? Like that in and of itself is a is like a pretty big challenge for many human beings. And you know, by the way, in anything I say, I don't have anything handled about any of this. I just know that this is kind of the lifestyle that I get. Keep living.

SPEAKER_02 44:01

We just love talking about it, right? And living it the best we can, but we just enjoy talking about it too.

SPEAKER_00 44:06

Well, yeah, and you know, but you know, once the awareness comes, then I know what there is to be responsible for. Like, you know, I just did a course this past weekend, and and you know, I've I'm pretty straight about my like default identity, Mitch. Like, you know, I call her Tinifer. She can be like a real arrogant, self-righteous V-I-T-C-H martyr. You know, she's like, if you and if you want to hear what that's like, just talk to my children, they will tell you all about her. And and and I've known that for a while. And I I say that without any kind of, you know, an arrogant in the way of like, I know better, like I know what's good for you. Let me tell you how I can make your life better, like that kind of arrogance. Um and so I've known about her for a while. It's not like she was new, but it on this past this course I did in the past weekend, I got, oh wow, being unworthy is part of that default identity.

SPEAKER_02 44:59

Yes, 100%. Like, and I hadn't seen that before.

SPEAKER_00 45:02

Like I knew that I dealt with shame and self-loathing and all of that. And I've had um but when I got that awareness last weekend, oh wow, like I just show up in life, but like who gets out of bed in the morning is unworthy. And that awareness was like, oh wow, I get to now be, I can't, I have the opportunity to now be responsible for like if I'm not creating something different, that's who's gonna walk through the door, and that's gonna who's gonna be having conversations with people. And that is like like so that to me is why I keep doing personal development work, because like my the brain is the brain. Those patterns that were created over the first you know decades of my life, they're not going anywhere. That default identity that got created through the the challenges of my life or the experience of my life, she is still there. Yeah, she still gets out of bed in the morning. And now I but because of this work, I now get to be a choice. Like, who do I want to be in life? Who do I want, and and who do I want to be as a creation for myself or other people? And and show me a world of people who are leading like that. Show me a people of like when you talk about leading from our humanity, right? Like human leadership, like show me a world where people who step into positions of leadership are doing so with vulnerability and understanding, like you said earlier, the base needs of human beings. Like human beings, like love, connection, and belonging are fundamental to well-being and success.

SPEAKER_02 46:36

And they're not going anywhere. They're not going anywhere.

SPEAKER_00 46:39

They're not. And what they're so powerful, the drive for those things are so powerful is people will actually sell out on what they actually want in their life if they believe that it means they will not get connection and belonging and be accepted.

SPEAKER_04 46:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:55

And like when I tell people that and they actually look in their own lives, and like if you look for the people listening to this conversation right now, look at all of the times in your life where you sold out on something that you really wanted for yourself because of other people's opinions or beliefs, or or what you thought, how you thought you should be, or how you thought life should go based on other people's measurements for success and happiness. And that is how powerful our need to connect and belong is. And when leaders get that, that will change and transform not only how they lead themselves, but how they lead their teams, and the kinds of results that come from that will, you know, again, not even the same conversation.

SPEAKER_02 47:38

Well, it's um yeah, again, there's there's so much there that's amazing. And and I think for the crazy part is I'm just sitting here thinking, if I'm if I'm in a leadership position, right, and and reflecting on the leadership positions I've held, just that five-minute diatribe that you just journeyed through is probably more training about leadership than most leaders have actually received. And so part of what inspired this, my new book, How to Hire and Keep Great People, is exactly that. It's like people get promoted into leadership positions, A, with little to no alignment. Like, like rarely does someone get promoted to a leadership position, and and the organization went, okay, is this really the right person for the job, personality-wise, spiritually, emotionally? Usually, for most places, they get promoted to a position of leadership because they've been there a long time or because of their hard skill success. Rarely does someone get promoted because of their presence and energy and ability, and you know that because of how people move people into leadership. Like, how many of us have experienced someone, whether it's a manager of a store or a CEO of a large organization? You experience them and you walk away going, Why is that person in that position? That makes zero sense at all. Yeah, I experience that more often than not. And that's kind of what you're alluding to when you say if we could have a world of leaders who were living within those behaviors and that inner personal health and journey, it changes everything. And I love your thought of unworthiness. You know, one of the things, one of the first questions I like to ask leaders is what are you ready to receive? What are you ready to receive? Because oftentimes they're they're they're thinking projected thoughts rather than inward thoughts. So, what are you ready to receive? And that goes to what you mentioned. If a leader isn't ready to have personal growth or to work through some of their stuff or to really lead themselves, then no work is gonna take place. So just they're not ready to receive anything. And then the next question becomes okay, once you work through what you're ready to receive, what are you ready to manifest? Not with your team, not with your organization, but personally with yourself. What are you ready to receive and what are you ready to manifest? And it has to go in that order because what you're manifesting is totally dictated on what you're willing to receive or reject, and that is directly related to your thought of unworthiness. You know, I want to go back to my story from the beginning. Most religious cultures, especially in America, so most I'm gonna say American Christianity is what I like to call it, um, modern world Christianity. It's based on you are unworthy, you cannot save yourself, so you have no choice in the matter, and you're gonna be really lucky if you don't burn in hell. Now, no one within that culture is going to say it that way, but that's the premise of what has been labeled the gospel of Christ is you are unworthy, you have no choice in the matter, and you were gonna be very lucky if you don't go to hell. So, what the culture I grew up in, I remember vividly these debates at church happening or in other areas. Well, if I drive down the road and I get in a car wreck and I say a cuss word right before I die, am I going to heaven or hell?

unknown 51:29

Oh my Lord.

SPEAKER_02 51:32

All right. Wow. But it is laughable, right? I have friends now that I talk to that didn't come from that culture, and they're like, well, that makes zero sense. And they'll ask me sensible questions, you know, about that. And I'm like, you can't ask sensible questions to explain an unsensible culture because that just makes it there's no sensibility to that theory, but we have to be compassionate toward that because that is what many people believe. And by the way, it's not just related to religion and spirituality. You know, you talk to business leaders, and it's like, well, these are the five rules to building success. Well, for you, but maybe not for anyone else. And so we have to be really sensitive and compassionate toward people's stories because again, you can only reconcile your reality, your dreams, your desires with your current perspective. And so I've learned that the hard way because the majority of people that were in my life 20 years ago when I was in that culture, they aren't in my life anymore by decision, but I still run onto them, I still have conversation with them, and I want to have a conversation that elicits thought and not argument. And that to me is another critical piece of leadership, you know, being in ministry, being a leader of a church, a CEO of a church, gosh, you talk about feeling unworthy. I mean, it's just you're just made. It's really a position that is built for failure. And we see, you know, like a mega church pastor has an affair or does something that people just think is the most heinous thing you can do, and they just they just get left to the roadside. And it's like, well, that's a position of failure. Not that people should be having making those decisions and behavior, some of it's damaging stuff. But at the same time, it's like people in leadership positions are just as human as you and I. There is no difference in their humanity, and so it becomes this idea of how do we not set people up for failure? Should there be accountability? Yes, yes, and yes. We could talk about that later. But I think it's this idea from leading from your humanity, it's being vulnerable as a leader and not setting yourself. That's where I think, and again in the church world, pastors get themselves in trouble, is they're set on these pedestals that are so high that no matter what they do, right, wrong, or indifferent, it doesn't matter. They're just set so high. And so those are tricky things, right?

SPEAKER_00 54:03

I absolutely agree with you. And and I what I just got, like you know, discovered in what you were saying, Mitch, is like I think that's also part of like why why we have this culture of like build people up and tear them down, is collectively as human beings, then we get to create more evidence for our point of view that it's better to stay small.

SPEAKER_02 54:24

Look, look at politics in the world the last six to eight years. I mean, all time, but especially the last two or three or four years. Politics is a perfect example of that from the perspective of you can take data and you can take whatever you want and package it, twist it, turn it, just turn on 10 different news channels. They're all using the same story, and they're reshaping it to bend toward their perspective or opinion or whatever sells. And that's a perfect example of what you're saying is it's like, well, so-and-so did this, so I'm gonna twist that to support my point of view. And really, there has to be a detachment and a neutrality to what's taking place around you, a neutrality from the standpoint of Amber made this decision, I don't agree with it. Well, really, you're agreeing with it or not, doesn't matter. The neutrality has to be Amber is human, she's going through this, she made this decision, I'm gonna be there for her. And I don't have again, we go back to control. I don't have to control everything, and I'm not going to be able to control everything.

SPEAKER_00 55:32

Well, I think what you're pointing to is like, you're like, what if human beings could actually embrace paradox instead of avoiding? Like, what if we could actually like be like, yeah, okay, you know what? I don't like what J.K. Rowling said about transgendered people. I don't, it's not aligned. I don't, you know, I'm not in agreement with that. And Harry Potter was like, that was some great books. And I'm grateful that like Harry Potter got like contributed to the work of literary, like literary works of the world. And I'm grateful that I get to read Harry Potter. And oh, by the way, I, you know, J.K. Rowling's I really don't agree with what you said about transgender people. Like it's about, and and I had this conversation with someone a c like a week and a half ago. We were talking about getting complete around some leadership that had happened in a company that I was involved with, and I was like incomplete with some things. And so I was sharing, and she was just doing such a beautiful job of just listening to what I had to say. And then and then she said to me, you know, Amber, there's a difference between you can be right without being righteous. And I was like, Yeah, like I could be right about something not working, but I don't have to make other people wrong when their behavior, their values don't align with mine. And I can, you know, and the other thing that she said that was like a huge, like, like just opened up such a space is like, because I like I really got in the conversation. I have very strongly held convictions about how I want people to be treated, like very strongly. Like I want human beings to be treated with dignity, I want human beings to be honored and loved and cherished. And her response to me was given the state of the world that we live in, that's great. And you should be prepared to be permanently upset. And oh, by the way, I'm not saying don't have that commitment. I have the exact same commitment. I just get that given the state of humanity as it is today. And this is a woman who's like whole life is in service of changing that conversation, as is mine and yours, but it's like just be prepared to go through life. And I got two things out of it. One, the state of the world as it is today. And two, if human beings want to perceive that they're not being treated with respect, then they're gonna perceive that they're not being treated with respect. So I can like I can hold space at human beings. But that what it looks like to be treated with dignity and respect isn't like Amber's belief about what it looks like to be treated with dignity and respect. It's not like the standard that I set. So yeah, great that I have that commitment and again just deal with this like the whatso of what it is to be a human being living in the world today, right? And yeah, so like that was like, I got it, you know, and I'm okay with walking around being perpetually upset that human beings don't treat each other the way I think they should. And I can be right about that and not righteous about it, right? I don't have to make other people wrong that human beings often are not. And I don't always treat people in alignment with how I like having grace and space for that, right?

SPEAKER_02 58:43

And that's really what I mean by the word neutrality. You know, that's I I I be I I try and be a little careful how I use that word because most people most people relate neutrality with passivity or just saying, well, I don't care. And really what that's what I mean by neutrality is I really learned that concept in reading Tik Nathan, um, the Buddhist monk who has written a bazillion books. Um, and it's this whole idea of of detachment of saying, and that's really what you're talking about is I can have a belief system in life, but I can also have a detachment toward projecting that belief system on everyone around me. And that's not my business. My business is to have my internal compass, to have my internal spiritual growth, to have my reflection and renewal and regeneration, and then manifest that in the world through compassion, empathy, encouragement, inspiration. And I can do all that without without ever getting it. I had a lady one time, we were having a kind of a similar conversation, and she looked at me and she said, Mitch, you know what's frustrating about talking to you is you don't stand for anything, but she was this very emblazoned personality that had to be right all the time. And what's funny is I could relate to that because that was 20-year-old me changing the world, telling people they were wrong to save them from hell. That was 20-year-old me. And so when she said that, I knew what she was saying because I had lived that in a previous life. And my response to her simply was do I not stand for anything, or do I actually stand for so much that you can't comprehend it? Those are two very different things. So, really, what was happening is because of my ability to detach, it was freaking her out. And so she wanted an argument, she wanted a rebuttal, she wanted a fight. And when you disarm yourself, it disarms others, and oftentimes they don't like that because we live in a society that's full of that. Well, we want to fight, we want to debate. I remember as a kid in church, they would bring in two preachers who had differing viewpoints on something, and they would literally set them in front of the church, and they they they like bragged about being able to have these big debates about all these eternal issues. And I remember as a kid sitting there going, Why do we have to debate over it? Like, well, they had to debate over it because they're eternal issues, right? And so their value system said, Well, we've got to get people to understand the truth, and so they had to make these debates up, like these big rallies where a thousand people would show up to watch these two men, you know, never women, heaven forbid women were entered into the conversation, but it was always just men having these big debates, you know, about these major issues. And it's like, is that really what you want to stand for? And so, yeah, it's an interesting thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:43

Something else becomes available in life, in my experience, when when it's you're just in the inquiry.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:52

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:53

You know, it's like, and it's like whatever answer you arrive at to whatever you're inquiring into, you choose to be like, that's just the answer for right now.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:05

100%.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:07

Doesn't mean it's like the answer forever, but you know, and and really getting that the answer is pretty freaking boring.

unknown 1:02:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:14

Like we're not actually really, we don't like as much as we like want the answers because we want the certainty and we think that's gonna provide something and blah, blah, blah. And you know, as a a reforming know it all, and someone who wants, you know, really, really spend most of their life wanting to know the answer. Um it's I'm I'm at a point where I'm like, that's kind of boring. Like the answer's great, but it's like the journey is in the inquiry. The the exploration, the discovery, the expansion is in the inquiry. And and and it, and your life just becomes so magical and miraculous when you can just be out in life, like noticing, huh? Why am I procrastinating in that area? Why do I keep repeating that conversation? Like, what's that about? I say I don't want that. What like, huh? Why do I show up? What you know, and I love the having the conversation with people about being leaders in your own life. And I think this is a big part of it. Like, why why do I lead and why do I lead in this area of my life and not like, why is my leadership showing up here but not here? Do I, you know, and not like it should be some way. We don't maybe there are areas of life where you want to take a backseat and allow other people's leadership to shine. Like, you know, what is the but like just kind of being in life like that, noticing being the observer, I think in that the to your point, Aaron, a detachment, you have to be detached in order to be like that, you know, Michael Singer's observer, looking at your life and and and looking at it and being able to glean whatever there is to glean from versus like, oh, life should look a certain way, I should be a certain way. Um, and when life's not aligning to how I think it should go, like there's some kind of problem here.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:05

And that's such a difficult life to live. It it just having been through that experience where there's one eternal truth and there's one path, and there's one way of being righteous, and there's one way of leading. There's really one way of existing, that is such a miserable life to live, because again, you're just sticking yourself in that little village and you're staring at the mountain each day, going, I wonder what's on the other side of the mountain, all the while being told we can't go to the other side of the mountain because it's scary. But no one really gives you the why. And if you ask, Well, why is it scary? The response always is, well, it just is. It's just scary. You don't want to go find out why.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:57

So I was in this like ethics of like I did my undergraduate degree in bioethics, right? So I was in this ethics of death and dying class once. And before we got into like the, you know, studying the different philosophers and points of view on, you know, the ethics of death and dying, my professor Sumner was like, we got to start with like engaging in this inquiry, like, what is it about human life? Like, why do we have it like it's so sacred? What is it so like, because in order to kind of get at why do we make such a big deal about euthanasia and all of these kind of philosophical conversations around the ending of life or around death and dying, first, what is it about a human life that is like we hold to be in the way that we hold it to be? So we had all of these conversations, and I put up my hand at one point and said, well, dying doesn't, you know, it's not a problem for the person who dies, it's a problem for the people who lived, right? And it's like that's Epicureanism, and where we're not talking about that right now. I'm like, okay, fine. But one of one of my classmates, you know, he was we're talking about various different arguments, right? The argument from religion that God created us and and With like we have to stay stay at our post, we don't have the right to leave our post because God gave us life. Like all of these different things. And at one point in the conversation, he said, you know, if you discovered that human beings were just like fodder for some alien species, like we were food, would you still say human life was sacred? Right. So we had all of these kinds of conversations. And at one point in time, a woman in the class said, Well, I just take it on faith. I just take it on faith that, you know, God said that I'm we're sacred and that we should, you know, treat human life like it's sacred. And I'll never forget what Professor Sumner said. He said, that's not a problem. He goes, but faith just says I'm going to stop asking the questions. It doesn't take the questions away. Yes. And and you know, so distinguishing, like, you know, there's lots of ways to look at faith, but I think that that's like even inquiring into like, well, how do I hold faith? Like, what is faith? What does that mean to me? Not like, what are my parents? Like, what was faith as a child, or or but what is what does faith look like to me now at this point in my life as a as a 42-year-old woman? Like and and just again being in that space of discovery and inquiry, and and because I think part of human nature is we want to know what's on the other side of the mountain.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:23

We're curious. We are curious, yeah. And that gets that gets stolen from us um at a certain time in life. And and and really the reason it gets stolen is because curiosity by nature challenges the structure of what your culture is. Curiosity says, Well, why do you, you know, when our kids were little, it was like, well, why, why, why, why, how? I mean, over and over and over, you hear parents of you know, kids that are four and five years old, it's like, are they ever gonna stop asking why? And the answer is no, and they shouldn't.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:57

Well, the answer is yes when we train them to stop asking why.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:00

Yeah, yeah, when we stop, right? Like they will stop asking why.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:04

But yeah, absolutely, Mitch, I 100% agree with you. We don't want them to because that's where innovation comes from. That's where no one ever created anything. You know, I say to my clients all the time, like, you can't create anything new by having the same conversation.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:19

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:19

And if we're all a network of conversations, if that's what it is to be a human being, is to be a network of conversations that we participate in, then what are we say newly about leadership? What are we saying newly about relationships between women and men? What are we saying newly about equality? What are we saying newly about faith? Because if we keep just having the same conversations that we've had time and time again, nothing new is ever going to get created. So, yeah, like let's keep having like that imagination, like that childhood curiosity and wonder. We we the our systems and our structures that you know, and we can get into all of these conversations about, you know, that could be another conversation for why those things come to be. Um I think at the end of the day, it's like the the opportunity to question.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:13

Yeah. Um, a a quick story, and I'll and I want to relate this directly to I loved what you said, you know, how how can we use our imagination to lead differently, whether it's internally or lead our teams. Um years ago, had had to have been 2003 or four. I was working in full-time ministry at the time. I'm in that very conservative religious culture, and there was a book that came out um by Rob Bell. It's called Velvet Elvis. And if anyone knows the story of Rob Bell, it's a very interesting story. Rob went from crazy mega church pastor, he was voted like most influential person in the world by People magazine at one point. I mean, he he was on Oprah, I mean, he was like the mega church pastor of mega church pastors, right? And eventually his curiosity led him to have to leave ministry because people were just it was insane to watch what happened to him. But he wrote this book, Velvet Elvis, and in the book Velvet Elvis, it became incredibly controversial because he posed this question. So most uh Christian religions believe that Jesus was born to a virgin birth through Mary. Rob Bell poses the question Well, what if it's not virgin as defined today? What if virgin in that culture meant you hadn't had sex before 16? Or what if virgin meant you had only had sex with one man and that man had impregnated you? And so he's just reframing and you know, his curiosity, and he's vocal about that, and he's asking all these questions that are totally railing against the basic theology of modern Christendom, right? And I will never forget hearing that question and going, What if? What if? And that really opened the door to my curiosity and gave me the courage to start going, why do we believe that we can only have communion on Sunday? Why can't women be pastors? Because I grew up in a culture that women weren't allowed to speak in church or do anything. Why? I mean, I started asking all these questions and Rob Bell gave me that permission. And so the way I'm relating that back to leadership is what if you did something a little different in leading your team? What if you allowed time in your team meetings for personal reflection? What if you asked people how they're actually doing in life? What if you've noticed that Maria is coming to work today and her personality this week has been very different than what it normally is? What if you actually pulled her aside and bought her a cup of coffee and said, Maria, forget work. I want to hear your story. What's happening? That's what leading from your humanity looks like is continuously saying, What if I did something differently? And the other question I love is waking up in the morning and going, How can I lead differently today than I did yesterday?

SPEAKER_00 1:12:19

It's like being out in life. Like what I hear is being in life and being with people like curious, curiously engaged.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:26

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:27

Like, you know, and like locating yourself like as a leader, like over them, over there where they are. And one of the biggest things that I got over the last week and a half in my own journey is like as someone who is a master facilitator, and that was some of the feedback I got from other people. It's like you're the queen of facilitation. Well, what if I was like, you know, what if I created being a leader of leaders, and instead of me doing anything, and you know, not that I'm lazy and anyone who knows me knows I'm not, it's probably the opposite. I get in my own way. So what if I could create being a facilitator of having other people fulfill on my vision for humanity? So less of me doing the work and more of me empowering other people's leadership to be able to go out in the world and and and in whatever way, if I was like unattached to what that looked like, like there was some way that that had to look like, but standing in my commitment for the fulfillment of a future where human beings know profound love, connection, and belonging. And that's just like how we like we all get birthed into that and raised in homes where that like profound love, connection, and belonging is like the norm for how human beings are raised in the first seven years of their life. Like, what if I took on becoming a leader that facilitates other people fulfilling that vision in whatever way they want to they want to um express that? And now I'm like, okay, well, what does that look like? What what I have no idea. Like, I don't know. I don't know what that's gonna look like. And that's like my most recent inquiry. And I just think um it's so funny you've you've talked a couple of times about the mega church culture in the in the US and uh I'd be, you know, let's have a chat sometime. I'd love to hear a bit more about what that's like because I don't have that experience up here in Canada. And uh not that there aren't dogmas and people who are very, you know, but that mega church culture I think is a uniquely American. I I don't know if that is really anywhere else in the world, but I I think regardless of whether it's that kind of culture or like anywhere where human beings have it, like there's some way that life should look and they're right about it, and like not just right about it, but you can be right about whatever you want, but we get righteous about it. Um that's where we get into real problems. Because inside of being righteous, and you know, if I'm right righteous and being so right and making you wrong, then there's no space for dialogue. And this is like this is the state of the world that we live in in politics, in in the education system, in in you know media, like it's like a bunch of people monologuing at each other and very little actual dialogue.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:19

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:20

Because in in order for there to be a dialogue, I have to be willing to actually listen to understand where it is that you're coming from. I don't have to necessarily agree with you or think you're right, but I have to be locate myself over there where you are and be willing to listen to like why do you, you know, why do you feel that way? What is your experience in life that would have you, you know, wow, what what what have you gone through? Like to hate people the way that you do? Like, what are your experiences? How is your world shaped? What were the kind of influences that you had growing up that would have you believe that, you know, some people are more valuable or worthy than others? And and and like even though that that's of an abhorrent viewpoint to me, if if there's not a space for dialogue about it so that you can uh that you can express what there is for you to express so that you can see something new on the other side, as long as we're busy making each other wrong for our points of view, then nothing ever new is gonna get created.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:33

Yeah, and it's um everyone has ended up where they are through a reason, through experiences, through decisions made. And you can't just negate all of that. Like there is a story there, and there's power in that story, and and and to your point, the more the more we can disarm ourselves of agreement-disagreement. And and I'm honestly at the point in life that I'm I've trained myself to about 90% of the time be able to step into a conversation, not even considering agreement-disagreement. And my goal, one of my goals in life is to be able to step into every conversation. Agreement-disagreement never pops into my mind. I'm not trying to sell you something, I'm not trying to get you to see my point of view. I want to hear the story. Why did you arrive at where you are? And when we can really, you know, we're talking about leadership, but it's any, you know, everyone is a leader. You're a leader of yourself first, you're a leader of the people around you, potentially, if it's your family, and not really a leader of, but a leader with your small community of people, whatever that looks like, you're impacting someone. Everything you do, say, think is impacting someone. And when we can begin to view life that way and disregard agreement, disagreement, but just go, wow, I want to know Amber's story. That's insane that you've ended up where you're at. That makes zero sense of the things that have happened to you, yet you are where you are doing what you're doing, and that that's truly the art of empowerment is honoring someone's journey and then giving them permission to continue walking forward. And if leaders could do that consciously and intentionally and not let it just be happenstance, I love you use the word facilitate. It's my understanding that that comes from the Latin facil, which means to make the way clear. You're not directing knowledge at someone, instead, you're you call it inquiry, you're asking these questions. People are not stupid. If you're a leader right now, listening to this and you have employees, those are some of the smartest people you'll ever be around. So just simply facilitate, make the way clear for them to be able to come to those decisions. Because I'm telling you, people are not some of the greatest ideas in the world are in the minds of people sweeping hallways or people in prison. The people that we've kind of cast away or looked down upon, some of the greatest ideas in the world are sitting in the minds of those people. So then, as a leader, the question becomes how am I facilitating that discovery that they can now bring that to manifestation and take part in that? And that's not easy. We're sitting here talking about this, like it's all easy. It's not, it takes a lot of um self-conversation. And my advice to people always is, you know, work with someone, work with a coach or work with a mentor or work with a therapist, whatever that looks like for you in your life, because then you can hash these things out. You know, you can express your fears. A lot of a lot of people in leadership, it's like, I don't want my people to think for themselves because then I can't control everything. And so when you can actually voice that to someone who's neutral and have that conversation, then you can learn new behaviors and as you've said, create new things.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:01

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And you know, and I I I seriously often acknowledge both publicly and privately to them, the people, the coaches, the mentors that I have and continue to have in my life. I wouldn't be here today without them. Yeah for two reasons. One, because it's always no matter where we get in our development, we are part of the function of the human mind in order to get things done efficiently efficiently and use less energy is to create brain patterns. And in doing so, things get hidden from our view. Right. Right. That's just and that's it doesn't matter how it doesn't matter how successful you are, it doesn't matter whether you're 15 or 15, that is just part of the function of how the computer that is our human brain works. Thinking takes a lot of energy, it the the brain is not interested in spending a lot of interest and energy, so it creates brain patterns in order to be able to function and use as little energy as possible. So I am I am constantly going to be having things become hidden from my view. Reason one. And the other reason is depending on where I am at my journey of development, and this is so true for me at different points, which it's like I couldn't see the leader that I am. You know, I I was like, I started this journey five years ago, and I was still I was faking it till I made it because I never wanted to occur weak. But I I had like my self-worth was in the toilet.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:32

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:33

Like I had like the shame and self-loathing, like that I was dealing with. And it took having people outside of me, you know, like my first coach Nassier say to me, you know, after hearing my story and being like blown away by who I am, saying, and but also catching that I didn't relate to myself that way. You know, well, Amber, if you saw you walking down the street, if you saw a woman who had had your experiences walking down the street, what would you say about her? That first experience of getting that I could step outside of myself and of view who Amber Howard was objectively, not from inside my own mind with all of the crap that was there about me, right? All of these people that held space and stood for the possibility of my leadership being fully expressed in the world.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:32

And and and who keep holding space for that. You know, that's why like pe don't don't hire a coach because there's something wrong with you or you need to fix something about your life. Hire a coach because like it's true that people you will die with untapped talent and potential, no matter what you create in life. So hire a coach or get a mentor, find someone because there is so much unpotential untapped potential in you that that coach is gonna hold space for and help you to see and help you inquire. And I think that's just beautiful.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:07

Yeah, totally. Someone else always sees who you're becoming before you do. Yes. Surround yourself with those people because most of the time they they are gonna speak life into you and bring that potential out of you. Sometimes they see something and they can throw up caution signs. Yeah, you know, hey, hey, I noticed this, I want to help you with it. Let's talk through it, whatever that looks like. Surround yourself with those people because most of the time someone else outside of yourself sees the sees who you're becoming along before you do. And that's um, it's critical to have those people around you. And there's there's an ancient passage that basically says all of the ancestors who have gone before us are cheering us on. And I think that is an incredibly powerful thought to hold dear, is that no one's against you, and you said it, you know, everything's working out for my good. The universe isn't against us, there's plenty of money out there to be made. It's you know, resources are endless, energy, money, thinking, creativity. It's not gonna run out. And so when we can view life from the people cheering us on, you know, I have dear people to me in life that have that have long passed on from this life, and phrases that they gave me still echo, and and they become really incredible encouraging factors in life, and so just know that no matter where you are, there's this great crowd of ancestors, present and former, that are cheering you on, and we want you to succeed, and we want you to tap into that potential, and again, tying it into leadership. Just think if you walked out the door every day and said, I'm gonna be the biggest cheerleader my team has ever had, I'm gonna speak more life into my team than I've ever spoken. Accountability will take care of itself. People aren't stupid. All of that stuff is gonna work out, it changes everything.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:19

Well, and back to go full circle to what you said earlier, you've got to be your first cheerleader before you can cheer other people on. And like, we're gonna end it here. I think, Mitch, I could probably talk to you all day. Uh like seriously, like just love talking to you. And um, I I think to end with what you just said is so beautiful, like surround yourself with people who speak life into you. So thank you. I want to honor and acknowledge you for being a leader and a human being that has a commitment to and lives your life in alignment with speaking life into other people. Thank you so much for being on the show. For those of you listening, you'll be able to catch Mitch in the show notes and find out how to get a hold of him and connect with him on and listen to his show. And uh, I just look forward to continuing to dance in conversation with you, Mitch.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:08

I love it. Thank you, Amber. This has been amazing. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:13

Everyone, have a great week. Thank you for joining us.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:17

Thank you so much for joining us for this week's episode. For show info, visit what wouldamberdo.com. And for information about Amber Howard and associates' offerings and services, visit amberhowdinc.com.