SPEAKER_00 0:01

Welcome to What Would Amber Do with your host, Amber Howard, your weekly dose of guidance, inspiration, and strategies to have your small business and whole life thrive. We bring you incredible guests who share their real life experiences of being an entrepreneur so you can have your whole life work. Now, here's your host, Amber Howard.

SPEAKER_01 0:26

Good morning, everyone. Welcome back to What Would Amber Do? It is my honor this morning to be speaking with Jen Silas Lee. Jen is a fellow podcaster and relationship coach and is dedicated to helping people grow their rel the grow the relationship of their dreams. Jen, just thank you so much for taking and giving your time and being with me this morning.

SPEAKER_02 0:51

So welcome. I love seeing you. I love hanging out with you, Amber.

SPEAKER_01 0:55

I know, right? It's nice that we get to create. It's really great.

SPEAKER_02 1:23

Right. Right. I'm I'm so excited that podcasting has become a thing. I'm, I mean, your your voice also is incredibly inspiring. It always drives me to deepen my own understanding of self, which is what I aim to do in my podcast, and helping others love themselves even more.

SPEAKER_01 1:46

So it's so expansive. It's really great. So talk to me about like what was the journey that you went on to create a Heart of Humans podcast and your coaching business. Like, how did you like how did how did that all come to fruition?

SPEAKER_02 2:04

Um I'm starting to appreciate the complexities in life. Like, because life isn't about headlines and sound bites, and um, we're seeing a lot of that being shared uh as our way of socializing, so to speak. And I think life is complex, and there's a lot of things that that people collapse into one answer when there's a lot to cover uh underneath. And I think being an interviewer is how we can untangle that. And I love relationships because I do a relationship podcast, and it just demands so much of us in relationships to show up uh consistently, and even when we're being hurt, I I think that it's one of the things that make us grow in that pain and the hurt of discovering all those imperfections and still loving, loving them, not settling for those imperfections because we all know we we don't like them, but but for love, you know, we love them. We can like them. We don't have to like them, we just we just love them. And learning how to love them is something is that I'm learning in in the process of being around people who are doing the work, filling their own hole or their cup, and that they're not relying on their circumstances to dictate how much they should love themselves.

SPEAKER_01 3:40

It's like, how do you keep what I hear in what you're saying is like, how do I keep my heart open? Like, how do I consciously like choose to keep my heart open given like all of my past and how like how I've been impacted in relationships before? And you know, like I've got this commitment to to be loving, to be accepting, to to just be with another person. And yet I come with all of this stuff that's already there that might have me, like by default, want to want to close my heart down or like protect myself or whatever that looks like. But how do I like as an act of you know, my my my willingness keep leaning in to to being loving, which I think is which I think is beautiful, and it takes something sometimes.

SPEAKER_02 4:37

Yeah, yeah, it really does. Um yeah, because we always think that there's we we figured it out, you know, we've we've gone through this before. I've read this story, I've seen this movie, I've I've heard my friends' experiences, I know this. And and it's it's it's part of the complexity that we that we hold. And earlier we were talking about the paradox, um the complexities that we have inside of us. We we know these things, but to really experience them is part of what makes relationships so invigorating, exciting, and painful because there's so much so much happening in one place, and and we're confronted with the idea that we should know something and we and we fall back to our human our human conditions.

SPEAKER_01 5:52

So funny that you say that. I was having a conversation with someone earlier about like where do where do we teach our children how to be in a relationship? Like, where do you get that education as a human being, right? Other than like through experience and like failing at it over and over again. And like, but you know, like parents, like some parents will have like the birds and the bees conversation and they'll have whatever conversation they have about sex, sex, but like the actual conversation about what it looks like to love someone, like typically that is just learned through watching whatever your parents did, right? Or the adults around you, and then you like learn how to be like you learn how to be in relationship. Um, we learn how to be in relationship through watching other people, and not always a great way to learn how to be in relationship. And uh as someone who grew up in a divorced family, like I'm curious to know like how has that how has that impacted your love relationships?

SPEAKER_02 6:58

Oh, huge. Speaking of complexities, you know, as children, we're not really told how to accept the complexities of life, and that our parents can can say this is what they want to see, or this is how I want to live my life, and live a completely uh model of completely different behavior, which is very confusing for a child. I grew up with uh two brothers in in my home, and my parents were constantly busy and keeping up with the Joneses, so to speak. And um my dad never showed me affection when I was a kid, but he showed his love through running his business and moving us from a small house from Scarborough to a mansion in Thornhill with an indoor swimming pool and 10 washrooms. And, you know, like I I didn't see my divorce coming at the I mean, my divorce, my parents' divorce at the time. And um, you know, they were there were my mom was in her 20s, my dad was in his 30s, and I look back at it now and thinking, like, how could I have judged them, knowing what I'm going through at this time in my life, not having any all all 100% congruency in my in my word and who I say I am. But you know, they kept it all together. They kept it all together, thinking that that was the right thing to do, not sharing their lives, not sharing their imperfections. And one day my father showed up in my sixth grade classroom and he ran up to me and he sweeped me into his arms and clinging tightly, he was and he started to cry. He started weeping. And um it was only a day ago at the time that my mother grabbed all of our things, and my my my brothers and I slept at a different house. My father went through a scandal and it was kept a secret. Um my mother was seeing someone else, and that was kept a secret, and they couldn't keep their agreements with each other, so they went through a divorce, but they stayed, they did not separate, they stayed together. And my parents moved together from house to house, and I changed to a public school, and like they they kept separate lives, and even and even though they stayed together, it felt like everything I knew about myself and my environment was completely gone. So it was a very confusing time in my life, and and what I learned from um there the consequences of shame and secrecy is that you know I I didn't know if it was okay to share my failures, you know, fast forward like 20 something years later, 22, 23 years later, like I have the opportunity, a rare opportunity now to be a mama to my partner's three-year-old son. And that I'm facilitating my own dreams as a child. And I, you know, like I'm I'm not sure if Eli will ever know um guilt the way I knew guilt when my parents were holding it above each other and having to stay together and having to like not tell my family for until I was 30 years old, over 30 years old. Wow. Um, because his parents are consciously working on their guilt. They haven't figured it out, but they're consciously working through their guilt and not holding above holding it above each other. And I'm I'm super conscious of that now. Um, having seen what guilt can do to people and and families.

SPEAKER_01 11:34

Uh you're getting me present back to, and I didn't have this epiphany at the time. It would have been probably helpful if I had it, you know, sometimes often it's like we see things in hindsight. But, you know, I don't think it's a problem that adults, you know, end relationships or start relationships or like live their life. Like that's just part of the journey. Uh and when you when you when you're a parent, like I remember back to when I ended the relationship with Keegan's father, my youngest son. Um like in hindsight, looking back at the timing of that, like it's like we created this family unit together, you know, and it was like a blended family, and it was like a whole bunch of craziness and like whatever. But in the dissolution of a relationship, I think adults' parents, specifically in this case, parents, forget that because it then goes from being about this broader family unit and how we are interacting with one another and what that looks like. And and the day in two like two human beings whose hearts are broken and they're hurt and they're in pain and they're behaving in however they're behaving. And, you know, specifically why like I ended the relationship around Christmas. And in hindsight, you know, when I looked back at that, I was like, I don't know if that was probably the service, like did service to the kids. Like if I'd been like being up bringing and I'm in this course, and one of the things we keep looking at is adult as possibility. Like, what does it look like to be adult as possibility? I don't know if that was being adult as possibility, like out here thinking, you know, probab maybe kind of hold on for a few more months so that like the kids didn't have the memory of like this, you know, like kind of foundational relationship in their life ending at the holidays. Now, I'm not saying like you suffer in like any of that stuff, but it's like so when when a family is a unit, oftentimes so much energy is spent like creating the family dynamic and like looking at and making decisions through the lens of what's going to serve the family as a whole. And then when the family breaks down for whatever reason, it seems like that goes out the window. And it seems like it's like, you know, we and we were talking before we, and I think this is actually a perfect time to have this conversation. We talked before we, you know, when we were getting ready to come on about this idea of othering.

unknown 14:05

Right.

SPEAKER_01 14:06

And this has been something like I've really been playing with and and noticing in the world that for whatever reason, like as human beings, when we create someone as other to us, whatever that looks like, that then gives us permission. Like we then give ourselves permission to treat that person in ways that are inconsistent with our values. And you mentioned it earlier, like there was like how your parents communicated being and like what they communicated, like what, and then how they behaved, right? And that like disconnection between how they told you to be or what they said things should be and then how they showed up. And it's like in that process, when a relationship falls apart, whatever the and it doesn't even have to be a romantic relationship. I think it it's even more complicated there because our hearts are so engaged, and you know, there's all of that. But when that relationship breaks down, it's like we create, we go from having that person be like a part of us to creating them as other. And then we stop, we stop thinking about what's gonna serve them. Like, how do I, you know, and I know there's a lot of courses right now and a big conversation about like conscious uncoupling and and all of that. So it's great to see that this is kind of emerging in in a new dialogue about how do we continue to, you know, we loved that person so much, and then how do we continue to honor them even through all the stages of the relationship?

SPEAKER_02 15:41

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. If my parents were able to show their their humanness, you know, like that that would have made um an incredible connection with me as a child and my own imperfections as as as I am navigating through the world. I and I and I hear how um there are echo chambers around us that make us feel like we have it all figured out almost in the same in the same way. You know, when I I can give an example earlier on when I was operating from survival mode, I would get whenever I got upset, I would yell at Vlad, my partner. And it's it's because that's how I was raised. And it would get to the point of threats, and it wasn't until he said that it was absolutely disrespectful to be yelled at and threatened, and that he didn't ever want to be treated that way. That I had to look at myself as a parent, which was still a foreign concept to me, only just under a year ago. Um I decided to take on this new relationship. And you know, how I could be treating myself as a child. And I saw myself in his shoes. You know, we've we've normalized our experiences with in our childhood to the point that we can be violent or aggressive, and we can make that socially acceptable. You know, like for women, it's it's okay, it's socially acceptable for them to be crazy, or it's it's for protesters, it's socially acceptable for them to be violent and and disparaging towards cops. But what does that what does that mean? What does that do? What does that do to people? We know what that does. It causes so much resentment. And even if you get what you want, because manipulation is a powerful tactic, even if you get what you want, what happens to people when they have to appease to someone else's emotions, you know, and not think about what they what they need in their in their moment and in their time.

SPEAKER_01 18:19

It's interesting. You're reminding me of like, and I haven't thought about Kant for a long time, but the philosopher Emmanuel Kant talked about like, how do you know whether something's ethical or not? Like, how can you determine right behavior? And his whole thing was like, you know, it talked about the categorical imperative, like this idea that like you know that behavior is right behavior if you can you universalize it and and and not create a contradiction. So it's like it's okay to manipulate someone else if in if if everyone in the world manipulated other people to get what they wanted, and that and the and we don't create like it's a little easier to see in the in the the like in the concept of lying. So it's like, how do I know if it's okay to lie to someone or not? Like if it's it's right behavior to lie to someone. And it's like, well, if everyone in the world lied to each other to get what they wanted, you would erode trust. Lying requires trust. And if everyone was just lying to each other to get what they wanted, then trust, there wouldn't be no such thing as trust. So it doesn't actually hold, it doesn't follow that you that you could that you could accomplish what you wanted to accomplish if everyone was lying. And uh I was just kind of hearing that in what you're talking about about manipulation. It's like this idea that like in the process of manipulating another human being to serve my own ends, whatever they may be, like I do harm not only to them, but I do harm to myself and then to like to relationship, right? Because like it's it's it's ripple effect, like we we're just not present to how powerful we are as human beings. And like yesterday is a perfect example for me of that. I was on this morning call that I'm on all the time, and I noticed, I I observed that one of the leaders of the call seemed his energy seemed off. And I was like, so I had a concern. Like, I was like, oh, I, you know, I didn't say anything, but it was just like in my space throughout the call that there might be like something going on with him. And I got in communication afterwards and I found out what it was, and and then like half an hour after that, I get a call from someone else who was on the call, and they were like, Are you are you okay? Like, I noticed you were off this morning. So, like, one, like, how great is it to be in a communities of people that are that kind of out here and like noticing and aware. But like, I really got like the ripple effect of human relationship, even when nothing's being said, Jen. Like, nothing was, I didn't communicate on the call to anyone, you know, like nothing was communicated verbally, but yet my body language, who I was being, you know, that I was being in my head with a concern versus being out here present, like that impacted another human being. And it's you know, I think so many people walk through life like feeling like they don't have any power. Like, and it's like it's the complete opposite. We are so powerful.

SPEAKER_02 21:24

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And as children, which is where this this this um tactic comes from, we we don't have quote unquote power, you know, we actually don't because that's you know, there we we have instead we have boundaries, and those boundaries are there to empower us without us realizing it at the time. And it's it's funny because we we can communicate um instead of manipulate what When we don't take away someone's power and freedom. And we can give them, we can empower them with boundaries or with knowledge. And sometimes it works for both.

SPEAKER_01 22:16

Boundaries is a good idea. I hadn't thought about that from childhood in quite that context. But I think it's that that's a very it's a very powerful insight. And at some point in time, so many of us like stop, like we don't intentionally create boundaries, right? Like we just we don't like, well, I can't, I won't speak for everyone, but for me, like this has been a big area of growth for me, of like commute being being able to communicate and being being willing to be vulnerable to communicate what works and what doesn't work for me in a way that does, you know, like honors the other people that I that I'm like dancing in life with, right? Like um, and just that whole piece around like, you know, I met someone recently and we were communicating, and um, I got activated in the conversation. And and you know, we talk about like radical responsibility, so I got activated in the conversation, and then I noticed myself, like I was like, Oh, you're busy, I'll I'll talk to you later. I've got work to do. And I so I communicated that, and he's like, happy, you know, like happy working, whatever, like have fun. And uh, and then I like sat with it for about five minutes, and then I went back, like I messaged him back and said, you know, something I want you to know about me is I dissociate uncomfortable emotions through work. And I just did that with you. I didn't want to be with whatever I was feeling in the moment, and so I just said, you know, I'm gonna go work. But that like that's a pattern that I've had throughout my life that is not particularly helpful in relationship, any of my relationships really. It's had a huge impact on my relationship with my kids. Um, and like even how like how they view being an adult and how, you know, because mom was always working, like, and you know, there was things to manage about taking care of my family and stuff like that, but I also really used work to avoid dealing with whatever trauma I was going through and things that were happening in my life. But, you know, really in romantic relationship, it's like just building up this like wall between me and my partners, um, and very being very good martyr about it, because like I'm the breadwinner, I'm like, you know, like justified and like working as hard as I do, all of that. So uh, but to me, like um to be able to be that vulnerable and say, yeah, like I just did that and own, like, and and be in communication about it with the other person so that they can know, you know, that they can support me and you know, not repeating that pattern.

SPEAKER_03 24:54

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 24:55

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 24:57

Yeah, it's sometimes it's so unconscious to us how deep our programming is, um, that we don't feel we can we may not feel very confident about how we approach it next. And then we, you know, some of us justify that that's just the way we are. But to be present with you know, this complexity, this, this, this knowing that's that you want to be connected to someone and you are also struggling with your ability to connect with yourself is is a challenge. It's it's it's one of those things that you know if if um if this is a sign, if this is a sign for you, it can be no better, no better time but to ask yourself if if these emotions and the feelings that you're feeling right now are what are what you wanna are is what you want to feel attached to at this moment. Because maybe the the the feeling of you know this this feeling like you're disappointing someone is just a feeling that you're used to and and that you have gone back to it as a way to protect yourself and not actually connect with someone.

SPEAKER_01 26:34

It's so funny. Like I'm just present right now in this moment, like you know, we are hardwired to connect and belong. Like it's just like it's it's like it's the reason why people use drugs, like you know, from the work of Gabor Mate, like it's like you know, Brene Brown talks about so many people talk about like it's just like that, like for human beings, our desire, our need to connect and belong and be accepted is so powerful. Like we will sell out on what we want and what's important for us if it occurs to us like having what we want is gonna get in the way of being accepted or belonging, right? And and yet, so it's like this fundamental human drive, and yet we spend so much time unconsciously disconnecting from other people, like and it's just so automatic, right?

SPEAKER_02 27:29

Like it's yeah, how we treat other people is how we treat ourselves, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:35

Yeah, it's like so it's like the key to having healthy relationships. I think what I hear and what you're saying is like to be willing to like do the work to be able to connect with self. And then from there you get to create like you know, really connected relationships with other people. But first you've gotta be, and and that like that mirrors my experience. Like the more able, like the more I leaned into loving myself and like actually doing, you know, and I'm I'm present right now to like Louise Hay in her book, You Can Heal My Life, where she says, like, I have clients show up and they want to talk about their weight and their money, and like, and I'm like, we're not doing anything until we deal with self-love, like your self-worth. Like, because until you get that handled, not not like there's a place to get to about it. I think it's an ongoing journey of discovery and expansion as you grow, you your self-image needs to continue to grow as well, so that you can be a match for the life you're attracting to yourself. And but there really is no nothing to do until you you start to do that work of healing yourself. And I know something that's in important to you is this idea that you could heal, like heal yourself in relationship, like in a romantic relationship. And I think it's interesting because I think sometimes we think we have to get all of that, like we should get all of that handled before we get into a relationship. So we're not bringing our, you know, like the the way we talk about it, even right. Yeah, we're not bringing our baggage to the relationship, right? But talk to me a little bit about like this idea that we can heal in the relationship.

SPEAKER_02 29:13

Oh, thank you. I love this question. Um and I love it because I'm I haven't figured it out. You know, I I think that we're all trying to present ourselves as we got it all together. I'm I'm so convinced that like even communication, um, you can com it doesn't get you everything you want, right? And it's it's one of the hardest lessons that we learn when we're younger is that we we don't get what we want all the time. And it's not to say that we're any less, it doesn't mean that we're any less. Um and it just means that we we can focus on our values and what we we truly, truly um revere in our lives. So when you're in a relationship, you know, sometimes you can communicate until the tacows come home and you still won't get what you what you want. Like none of you, because you both decide you're both on different planes. This person wants this. Oh, you just realized that this person really likes this, you're not into that. And I think these differences and is is uh is really we should be looking at our values, how similar our values are in relationship to us, and differences can come in tactics, that's fine. But differences in values, and perhaps the priority of our values would be one consideration um when going into relationships that that would be a foundation for a compatible long-term relationship.

SPEAKER_01 31:10

Yeah, and it's funny because like the way values show up, like not always even like, you know. So if I think back to my relationship with the father of my my youngest son, we had fundamentally different views on how a home should be structured. So like I was um that a home should be child-centered, and that like that the focus of the home was like um like not that the kids got everything they wanted, or like, but it was like that was the lens through which life was being like journeyed, right? Was like through these children. And he had a fundamental point of view that life was like that the home should be adult-centered. And and it's not that either one of those is right or wrong, and through we we we struggled with that throughout our entire relationship. And ultimately, I don't think we ever like man, like, you know, because I I just sometimes when you're when your core values are so diametrically opposed, it just doesn't serve anyone. Because, you know, if you've got to come closer to me, or I got like I'm giving up something that is like fundamentally important to me. Um, and like as someone who's like dating, like I'll often have conversations with men very early on in meeting them. Like, do you want your own children? Because I'm 40, I'll be 43 next week. And there are still men that I, you know, like might be talking to that are still interested in having their own family. And it's like, I'm just not that's not, I'm not there in my life anymore. So I wouldn't ever want someone to give up something that is like of like super importance to them in order to be in a relationship with me. You know, it's like, no, you get to fulfill on what you want, and I'm just not your human because like that's not I'm not at that point in my life anymore. That's not something I wanna, I wanna, yeah, I don't want to have any more kids, right? That's I've I've I've been there, done that, got many t-shirts. I'm good.

SPEAKER_02 33:21

Many accolades.

SPEAKER_01 33:22

Yes. Yeah, but to just like be out authentic about it, right? And like be able to talk about it and just say, like, I'm not trying to like hin trap you in some conversation about like, or you know, I know we just met, but like to me it's a deal breaker, right? So what are those what are those things in relationship or that are really important to you that like um you're just you don't want to or you're unwilling to to sacrifice.

SPEAKER_02 33:49

Yeah, exactly. It it takes so much honesty with ourselves to to tell ourselves that this is not our values and this is your values, not mine. You know, part of the reason why I feel like um my greatest passion is sharing where guilt comes from, coming from a divorced family, is that we as children from divorced families lose our sense of our our our trust with each other um and knowing this is what we want, and we learn to appease other people's emotions. And it doesn't mean that it's only from a divorced family's item, just it's anyone who experiences guilt and and we're not able to see that this is what we want because we've been working most of our lives to appease someone else. So sometimes, you know, I I I completely relate to that. I feel like a lot of us have a hard time being honest with what we want. Um, I call it sometimes the nice guy syndrome or the nice girl syndrome, and and it causes more harm when I when I look back and I see the experiences and of people of not being able to own up to what it is that they truly truly desire. And maybe at the time they don't even realize that that's what they want. Um it causes a lot of havoc because another person can feel like, oh, it's your fault for not telling me. Well, the person didn't know at the time.

SPEAKER_01 35:39

It's yeah, it's like the unfolding nature of being a human being, right? Like we're never like we're never cooked, we're always a work in progress, right? And you know, I've heard people talk about like, and this is like part of it, right? Like we we get real like attached to a point of view about things. So I've heard like in recent conversations like about conscious parenting, like that parents should like handle their stuff before they have like people should handle their stuff from their own childhood before they have kids. And and to me, it's like way more important, and this is why like personal development, this like having people in my life like you, like being surrounded by communities of people where I get to keep inquiring into like myself and and my experience of life and who I'm being and all of that stuff, it's like way more important to like have the tools because you can't know everything. Like, and and it's in the process of living our life, you know, is stuff that might not come up until your kid is born. And you can like do all of the work that you want, you know, to try and prepare yourself. Like anyone could ever really do that anyway. For like, oh, I got, you know, I'm complete with my parents, like I'm like, there's no story there anymore. Like, I get the they did the best they could, like all of that. And then you have you create this life with someone, and they have their second birthday, and you're sitting there and like you're triggered back to your second, like, I don't know, I'm just using an example, but it's like life unfolds and we can't know everything. And so to me, it's like it's less important to sit there and like really dig into the why I am the way I am from my past and like you know, like um like dig into myself than it is to make sure that I have tools and ongoing practices to to to be radically responsible for my own life, to like be in the driver's seat of my own mind, to like get that I'm the creator of all of it and that I always have a say in the matter about like who I'm being in response to the ex the circumstances that are surrounding me, right? Like I'm not stuck with anything. Yes. Yeah, like what I so when I hear you this idea about healing in relationship, like I think that's it, right? Like this idea that like you don't you don't know, like you're gonna be you're gonna connect with someone, and maybe you connect on a deeper level than you've ever connected before, and you become more vulnerable than you've ever been. And then like that's something to like deal with, right? Like whatever comes up around that, and then um, and you couldn't have known until you were in that moment with another human being because your heart's never been that wide open, and then as a result of your heart being that open, all of a sudden it's like terror, right? Like, what if what if this goes away? Like, what if what if I lose this? What if I say something?

SPEAKER_02 38:34

Um Yeah, intentionality makes such a huge difference. You know, we can set up boundaries out of fear, and that's different from setting boundaries out of love. I think sometimes it's it's maybe it's confusing for some people. Um but I think that I think that we're looking to empower people, and it's a good indicator, the best indicator, because some people would be like, okay, what's the difference between setting boundaries out of fear and love? Because I love my kids, but I'm scared they're gonna kill themselves if I don't set these boundaries or they're gonna ruin their lives and drink those drink drink their lives away. Um yeah, intentionality I think comes from knowing that you can empower them with the knowledge to do more to become better than their current circumstances, not to prevent them from going beyond um the brink of depression or something. I think it's giving them the possibility. You talk about possibility a lot. It's giving them the possibility that there's so much more for them to discover, and that life is an ocean that you can see a wave coming from a distance, and it might be small, but it won't be until the wave comes closer. That you really feel the magnitude of what that can do to you.

SPEAKER_01 40:27

Yeah, like present right now to what you said earlier about the complexity of human relationships, and like like this idea that like really gets talked about a lot in wisdom that we are just networks of conversations. Uh, like that what it is to be a human being is to participate in like ongoingly, all the time, like these networks of conversations, and you know, often not not created conversations, right? Like conversations from our past, conversations, other people's conversations that we engage with, like the noise of what it is to be a human being and be in life, um, our own network of conversations that we have ongoingly with ourselves. Um and like the beauty of that. Like if you just allow it, right? Like if you just allow it to be and allow not make the complexity wrong, not have it be right, like just allow that that human beings are complex and we're constantly changing from moment to moment. And um yeah, that I could ongoingly create like being with all of it. And uh one of the things we talked about a lot on the last weekend was like this idea of like being out in life, like and and imagine like in relationship, like in any relationship but romantic relationships, like being in life, like all is well. Like, regardless of the circumstances, regardless of how your partner communicates with you, regardless of what your kids do or what someone says to you, or like you know, what shows up or doesn't, like that you could actually just create a commitment and declare that you're gonna take on the practice of ongoingly being in life like all is well. And then you might have breakdowns against that. Like, we're human, we're human beings having a human experience, right? Like, you're gonna have breakdowns against that commitment, but what would become available in relationship? And I think back to I was sharing this with someone this week in my relationship with my daughter, like I made a commitment to her that I would always be the first one to get off it with her. And for for some people, like for people listening who don't know that, like who don't know what it means to get off it, it's like a particular turn of phrase from Lamarck and courses that Jenna and I have done together. But it's like this idea that I you give up the right to be right about whatever it is. And so, and you know, that commitment has sucked at times because I've been real right and she was really wrong and I didn't want to give it up. Like, but it's like, well, who am I gonna be? Am I gonna be my word to her? Because I created that, like that commitment to her in our relationship, because she's like one of, you know, she's my best friend, she's like my daughter, she's like one of the most important people in my life. That commitment wasn't just created out of for no reason, it was created because I wanted like our relationship to always be what one. And I get to, like, I have the opportunity, I'm blessed to choose that for myself. And she'll either, you know, and and she'll either get off it or she won't. Should like it's not dependent on her. Um but in the same way. Way, like we could create for ourselves. Like, I am just declaring for myself that I'm gonna be out in life. I'm gonna be in my relationship. Imagine what it would create in your relationship with Vlad. That like you are gonna be constituted at all times that all is well. And then he's gonna show up, however, he's gonna show up. He's gonna say whatever he says, he's gonna do whatever he does, and you are gonna be the clearing for all is well.

SPEAKER_02 44:29

Yeah, yeah. It's a it's always a tough relationship when you know that you're right, or and then your partner is convinced that they're right, or your daughter's convinced that they're absolutely right. And you both have the best intentions for each other. Um, and yet people have their own tactics, they have their own journey. It's it's one of the toughest things for us to accept um because we we want, we think we know better, but I think uh when you say all is well, it it just gives them that sovereignty to find the depth you know of their ocean, just like we have. How many people have told us that we were doing what we were doing, or just it's just not how things are like you you could you cannot do that, Amber. You cannot do that, Jen. And it's it's like we we just learn how to trust ourselves as much as we we allow ourselves to trust another person. It's the toughest thing. Trusting our kids are is the toughest thing, and yet the most rewarding and inspiring.

SPEAKER_01 45:58

Yeah, and I was like speaking of kids, like I was thinking like, what would it look like? What would that experience be like for your your stepson to be raised in the kind of environment with you know, whoever his parents are, stepparents, parents, mom, dad, whatever, right? Like second mom, fifth mom, like whatever, you know, whoever, like created, um like all is well. And that's just like he gets to grow up inside of that kind of clearing.

SPEAKER_02 46:25

I was just thinking Vlad must be doing something right to get a fifth mom. It's like I don't know where that came from. But extra hands on on the plate. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 46:34

Um yeah, that would be some kind of created life. Yeah. And like talk about complexity, right? It's so funny. My brain was just like it kept going too far. Like brains do that sometimes. But yeah, like what difference would that make if he grew up in an environment where the adults were just being out in life, like all is well? And then life shows up, right? Um, yeah, and like to not have that be yet another. Like sometimes I think when you know, people who do this kind of work that you and I do on ourselves, like we create these commitments, and then it just becomes another thing that we get to use to beat ourselves up with when we're not being that, right? So it's like not like something else to add to the should stick that we then like beat ourselves up with, but just like like an inquiry, like an ongoing inquiry. Like, what does it look like to bring? What would it look like to bring all as well to this moment? What would it look like to bring all as well to that communication? What would it look like to bring all as well to the, you know, what's happening with First Nations communities in Canada? What would it look like to bring all as well to like cancel culture? I know, right? And then like, what does that all because like there's this like such a drive in human beings to do something about it or fix something? And yeah, and then like the you know, we know from the work that we do in like mindset and like thinking into results, the more we try, the more we resist something, or the more we try to fix something and like it's broken, the more of that thing that we get. So, what if like bringing all is well to the living of life wasn't some like way of like letting ourselves off the hook or like not being responsible for or avoiding, like not that. Like that however life is showing up, that by choosing to be in the inquiry of what all is well, like that that would actually be the thing that makes the difference in creating something new.

SPEAKER_02 48:51

You're right in that if we try to change something or resist something, it will show up more. And we've seen examples of that, right? I think um I think I think if we there's there's there's a ability and the possibility to empower people with knowledge and boundaries by being true to who we are and our values, and the rest is up to them. But the more you try, now this is when it goes to different, like this is the manipulation that I am trying to convey to people that it gets what you want, but not in the long term, it doesn't fulfill the long-term goal. Um and I think people get that really confused that oh, it's a win. It's a win because I I was able to unload and unleash and separate myself from someone else, shame someone from from not being a part of us. And I think I think it it certainly can work in the short term, but it does not work in the long term. It there's too much, there's too much resentment. And it's one of the things that I would never want Eli or any child to hold for a very long time because it it carries, it's something that they carry, and they don't have the ability to move from a sense of love, from a sense of giving, from a sense of contribution, from a sense of co-creation. It just robs that from him.

SPEAKER_01 50:42

Well, I what I hear is like when when we manipulate someone in order to serve our own ends, we we turn them into an object.

SPEAKER_02 50:55

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 50:57

We turn them into an object. And like that, that like one, like I mean, just think about that experience of being like objectified. It's like does not feel good. It does not create, you know, like in the person who's experiencing that objectification in whatever way, it it it does, you know, so and then we we just get more disconnection, right? So it's like it just breaks down, like it just creates, like, as you said, more resentment, um, distrust, like uh resignation. All of these things that just caught like serve to continue you know, to drive more of a wedge between human beings who essentially, like, regardless of where we come from, you know, like all of the differences between us, you know, or like ethnicity, culture, religion, sexuality, like all of it, like at our core, we are human beings having a human experience. And we share, like, in our in it in that shared experience of being human, like being human, having like being human beings having a human experience, like there's so much that we actually have in common. Um and and I really do believe, like when I when I like if if I if I believe that we're all made of energy and we're all the same thing, then you know, we're all one. Like when I either do harm to someone or allow harm to be done to me by not having boundaries like that work, like not being being responsible for that it's on me to communicate what works and doesn't work for me. And not like it's like I'm making it wrong if someone like you know, back to that conversation about um, like I got I got contributed to me recently, like you can be right about something and you don't have to be righteous. And I was just like, oh yeah, like I could be right about that your treatment or your behavior or what's happening with anything in the world, I could be right about that that doesn't work. And I don't have to make the other wrong.

SPEAKER_02 53:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:12

Right? Like imagine a world where people could like just freely express their viewpoints, what it is that they're they are right about for them, what's right for them, without making other people wrong that they're not operating consistent with that, right? Like, um I like it's like hard to even imagine what a world where people were operating that way would be.

SPEAKER_02 53:41

I think we're in a new generation of parenting, and it's so exciting, you know. I think that ages ago, um, parenting had a power structure, and it it worked all at the time, you know, it was it was part of what helped move society um so efficiently, and and it worked at the for the time, but I think now it's this transition from power to to love that I find really exciting. And you know, it's imbued in the work that you're doing and in the work that your children are doing, that they will never feel like they'll feel obligated to stay just because you know someone mistreats them, but because they are able to move for for loving themselves and putting the boundaries to say that this is this is how I want to be treated, and that they can define their own life and create their own life.

SPEAKER_01 54:49

Yeah, it's beautiful. And like that I'm doing the work that I'm doing, and that my kids are doing the work that they're doing, like started with us. Like it started in the family, it started in my relationship with them, it started in me being responsible for like who I'd been and and and how I'd been with them, and and um, and I think it always like you know, coming full circle, right? It it always starts with like not confronting the self in a way that's like, you know, but just being willing to authentically look at ourselves and who we be in relationship, who we be with others, um, and like being willing to just like course correct like when how we're showing up in the world and like being willing to have feedback and asking for feedback and being, you know, like what is your experience of me? You know, like am I like are you experiencing me as being congruent congruent with like who I say I am? Like, where are the places where you don't experience me as being congruent? Um yeah, I think that like it it starts with like being in the inquiry. Like for me, that's like people like what's a word that's like that word is really important to me, like congruence, like um not like that's the that's what what I strive for. Like I strive to be out in life, being congruent with who I say I am in every situation, and I don't always accomplish that, but that's the like that's the that's the the that's what I strive for. That's the commitment that I have.

unknown 56:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 56:41

Yeah. And love is accepting all of those incongruencies. Yeah. It's that's that's like the new age love. It's before you, you know, you can only feel loved because you meet this standard for your parents or you meet this standard from society. But this new age love, this autonomy, this sovereignty is like despite how I feel about myself in that moment where I do not feel congruent with my actions or my values, I still love myself. I'm not gonna paralyze myself from this instance in time.

SPEAKER_01 57:34

Yeah, like that there, I mean, like that there's not some way that I have to to be to be worthy of love. Like there's not like some criteria that I have to meet. Um and I think that's part of it. Like you you said it earlier, like like that ability to be all with all of it, like to just be with all of it. You know, the parts of myself, like it's one of the most freeing experiences. And sometimes it's like shocking to people. Uh, and I think I'm gonna swear right now for the first time on my podcast, so you can all be like that, that and for people who know me. Yes, it's probably a breakthrough that I've gone 45 episodes on the podcast. Um, but like my like the way I wound up being, like who gets out of bed in the morning is a self-righteous, arrogant, unworthy, bitchy martyr. Like that's who, like, that's just who shows up by default based on my past. And I can say that without any invalidation. Like, it's like because that's not who I am as a created being. That's that's what got created as a result of a lot of experiences in life and trauma and all of these other things, and being a 10-year-old girl alone in the world, and having to figure out how to navigate all of that and like what what worked and how to keep myself safe in a world where there really weren't adults to take care of me on and on and on. You know, you could go on. So it doesn't in the and like, but I now I get to be responsible for her. Like I get to own that that's who gets out of bed in the morning, and then I have a choice. Like, I can either like just let her run my life, and it's it's not right or wrong, it's just gonna get me a certain set of results, right? Which I may or may not like. Or I can say, well, who do I, who am I as a created being? Like who am I the pot, you know, who do I choose to be in life? Well, I choose to be loving, I choose to be trusting, I choose to be fierce, even though parts of me want to be nice and please other people. I choose to to keep leaning into being a fierce, powerful woman who's worthy. Like, how does that like I choose to be worthy, like as a creation? And the more we do that, the less the other shows up, right? Because we now create new neural pathways and new, you know, like our subconscious mind actually starts to rewire itself so that like it's like at first it's like I and I really got present to this with gratitude, Jen, like recently, because I like actively had this like gratitude practice. And I was like, and at the time I needed to because like by default, I just was not a grateful human being. Like it was just not a grateful human being, and that was part of like this, it was never enough. Right? I was never fundamentally, I was never enough. So, like whatever was showing up in life was showing up inside of that conversation, and there was no gratitude. And so, like, in order to build new neural pathways, I had I took on a practice. I like built that muscle. And I actually have like gotten to a place where just by default, because of that work over time, who shows up in life is someone who's just profoundly grateful for all of it. Like the stuff that goes the way I think I want it to, the stuff that doesn't. Like I'm just grateful for my life. And I it's there's no efforting involved to being grateful. I don't have to do gratitude lists or, you know, and I and I might sometimes, but there's no like gratitude practice because being grateful is just now part of the default being that I like the default way I do life.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:13

That's an incredible practice. I and I can relate so much to waking up in the morning feeling like a shitty human being. And like I like it, that's that's it's it's so great because I I can tell you one of the practices that I do every morning is letting go. Very similar structure, which is to in in conjunction with being grateful for the the shitty human being that I am. I let go of the things that I'm holding on to for calling myself that. And I let go of all the connotations that that means. I don't deserve love, I don't deserve connection, I don't deserve intimacy. It's like I'm an excellent manipulator to myself. It's really, it's really interesting.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:06

I love it.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:07

Like we have to be conscious of when we manipulate ourselves.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:12

Absolutely. Well, and that like that self-hypnotizing, you know, like like this idea that we're always creating. Like we're never not creating.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:34

Yeah, you're you're you're speaking creating on a subconscious level too. You're not just saying like on a material level. You're speaking, I am creating the new person that I am today.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:48

Yeah, well, I think we're either like, I mean, it is the subconscious, it's a creating our experience of reality and even shaping the reality that we see. And that's either going to happen by default from some past that we've lived. And so what comes from that? Well, just more of what we've already had. Yeah, so for those of you listening, if you have the experience of Grandhog Day in your life, well, that's because you're operating in life on autopilot. And what's what's doing the creating is your experiences from the past. Well, you can't create anything new, creating from the past by default. So then the opportunity is to using your conscious mind and the faculties, like our higher faculties in our conscious mind, our will, our intuition, our our, you know, like all of these different faculties to to to choose to create what we're planning in the subconscious mind so that we can actually create, you know, re-rewire that thing. Which is like super exciting. And this is like when I tell people you're never stuck with anything.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:59

Yeah, neuroplasticity for the win. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:04

So good. Uh Jen, thank you so much for being with me this morning and sharing yourself and and with with my guests and my audience, like with the audience. And um I just love being with you. You just have such like I really honor you. Um just gotten so clear for myself. Like I I I love being with people who are on the court in their life doing the work.

unknown 1:04:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:38

Because then like we just become so available for each other and like for being in relationship. And I, you know, as someone who lives their life that way, I get it takes something to be that kind of person, to be that kind of human being who's like being radically responsible for themselves and like inquiring into how you how you do relationship and how you be in relationship. And and um, I just really want to acknowledge you for being that kind of that kind of person who's like just takes yourself on that way. And uh thank you for being with me this morning.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:10

Thank you, Amber. I'm really inspired by you. I really appreciate that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:16

For those of you listening, you will be able to find out how to connect with Jen and her podcast as well in the notes for the show and whatever you get up to this weekend. I hope you have a wonderful weekend.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:28

Thank you so much for joining us for this week's episode. For show info, visit what would Amber Do.com. And for information about Amber Howard and Associates' offerings and services, visit AmberHowardInc.com.