SPEAKER_00 0:01

Welcome to What What Amber Do with your host Amber Howard. Your weekly post of guidance, inspirations, and strategies to have your small business and whole life thrive. We bring you incredible guests who share their real life experiences of being an entrepreneur so you can have your whole life work. Now, here's your host, Amber Howard.

SPEAKER_04 0:26

Good morning, everyone. Welcome back to What Would Amber Do. It is really my honor this morning to be speaking with Jeanette Goulet. Jeanette is a consultant and has been a leader in organizational change for decades. The focus of Jeanette's work has primarily been in the mental health field. Jeanette's personal commitment and passion is to empower people around their mental health and well-being. Jeanette, you're joining me from Nova Scotia this morning. Thank you so much for being here on the show with us.

SPEAKER_01 0:57

It's a pleasure, Amber. I was looking forward to this this morning. Thank you for inviting me.

SPEAKER_04 1:03

So good to be with you. So talk to me. How did you end up being in Nova Scotia? How did you be, you know, how did you end up working in mental health and organizational change? What has your journey been like to get to today?

SPEAKER_01 1:16

Well, um many years ago, uh, when I in my early 20s, I was uh leading a group of secretaries to um finally get on the map with regards to their salaries, you know, being honored for their work. And I was I just happened to be voted in the leader of that presentation, and there was someone in the audience from the Addiction Research Foundation who saw me and said, We need you to be a community consultant. Um, not only are you bilingual, but um I had because I had touched on mental health and how um when we respect the work of each other, our mental well-being is increased. And she was blown away that I would actually link that to, you know, actually, you know, it was like a contract negotiation, you know. Excuse me. So I spoke with her and I've been in the field ever since. So I was trained by the Addiction Research Foundation. At that time, it was called that. It's now called the Center for Addiction and Mental Health, a major leader in the in mental health and addiction research and program development. And I worked in Northern Ontario and Toronto and Eastern Ontario. And um at that time, at early on in that at that time, um I didn't realize the impact of learning about mental health, mental illness, addictions, and I had to acknowledge at that time that my family's hiccup in life, generationally speaking, is mental illness and addictions. And so I made a point of learning as much as I could. And one of the things I was known for the over the last 30 years, even though I was, you know, dabbled in some research, uh, high-level training, but what I really loved to do was to speak for the client. You know, when the client walks into the hospital, what happens? Of course, there's nurses and doctors, but real what really happens to the client, and we know that most of the bad stuff, the risky stuff happens when the client leaves the hospital. Well, I fought for follow-up calls for the for the client, you know, checking in with people. They're not just a file, right? On the doctor's roster. So that's been um a great thing. And as I stand today at 63, we have um accumulated five suicides in my family. And I and it was taboo for us to talk about that early on. And it's a conversation that we can now have in the family, we can now talk about bad days, we can now talk about um, you know, how stuck you get when you're in those days. And um, but it it was a big revelation for me to understand that even in my family, having experienced, having those experiences, that there were still people resisting, you know, the impact of mental health, mental illness on someone's life. So right now I'm um uh, you know, I've one of the things I've I've really enjoyed doing in this field is developing programs, always with the view, the filter of the client's eyes and experience, developing policies that keep them at the center of things. And right now, you'd think, you know, I'd be finished training and that, but I'm now um engaged in peer support training. The big, the big push in Canada right now is for employers to have peer support groups, people trained so that employees have a go-to person inside, you know, and I want to be the training, the trainer of those people. And I will be certified before the end of the year and uh be able to provide that. So it's just been increasing and increasing. Um, and it's it's my passion. One of the things I've noticed about mental illness, and this is most relatively recent, you know, a couple of years ago, is that people will say, actually say, you know, oh my cousin died of cancer, my my brother died of XYZ, right? But when you say someone killed themselves, someone, you know, took their own life. What I say today is the the last person in my family, my uncle, who was my age, um he died of mental illness. He died of suicide. He died of, you know, that's what he died of because he he was sick all his life. So it's like having cancer for many years, right? So that I'm I'm and I'm not and for some unknown reason, I believe it's just experience and wisdom and sharing that I take the risk of saying those things that are, you know, people go, whoa, dying of mental illness, right? I'm not scared of it anymore. Now, the second part of your question was did you uh was why I got here? Well, two years ago I had a nopra winfree aha moment. I had uh the Ontario government had uh put us uh a kibosh on all uh new investments in uh in uh mental health for a while. And I went, so all my contracts dried up, and I went, Well, where do I want to live? What do I want? Well, every time I come to Nova Scotia, I never want to leave. I'm here now. I live in the Annapolis Valley, I see the Bay of Fundy from my apartment, and COVID has allowed me and my community, my world to be still connected. I was so worried when it started, right? I didn't realize that Zoom would take over, would be the best thing that ever happened, right? So, and just like you and I right now. I've known you only on the screen. And I it doesn't it doesn't make it less. So I I love it. So there's my story, Amber.

SPEAKER_04 8:48

So many, so many things to touch on there. And you know, you actually brought up a few of the things that I did want to talk with you about this morning, creativity, ongoing personal development. But really, like one, I want to just acknowledge you and honor you, Jeanette, for being one of the pioneers in this conversation. Like, I mean, it's still not an easy conversation for people to have. We still have so much shame around mental health and mental illness. And, you know, and so, but going back decades, being people who were initiating these conversations when there was no agreement to have these conversations, people didn't want to have these conversations at all. It was like just we don't talk about certain things, it's inappropriate, it's it's not done. And to be one of those people at the forefront of that, not only saying, you know, not only speaking into existence something that people didn't want spoken about, but saying, no, this is a conversation that needs to be had, but also speaking about it in a way that put the client or the patient first in a field that at that time was still very paternalistic, right? That that that you know, go back, we look at medicine 20, 30, 40, 50 years ago, you know, it was very much that whatever the doctor said goes, and that the doctors and nurses and the medical community know best. And you know, not looking at things through the lens of like seeing a whole person. And and I can, you know, I I I really appreciate the kind of you shout out to CAMH to, you know, the Center for Addiction and Mental Health and Research. Like, you know, my family has used their services much over, you know, my lifetime. My mom benefited from many of their in in-person and you know, output inpatient and outpatient programs to deal with our dissociative identity disorder. And um, you know, so I'm really grateful. And it's one of those kind of neat moments for me because you don't know when you go and use the medical community, you know, medical institutions and stuff like that, you don't often get to meet. And regardless of whether you were instrumental in one of those programs my mom used or not, you know, but you were there, you were part of the community of people that were creating a continuum of care for CamH's patients and clients. And so just like it's very touching for me to know that you know there was a part of you, and and you know, I can now see why uh my mom had the kind of care and treatment she did at Cam H because it was of because of leaders like you who were standing for something and had a commitment. And I think it's you know, my mom used to talk about it. She said, People don't see, when we talk about mental illness, her way of putting it was people don't see the wheelchair on the inside. Right? They, you know, if you if I was walking, right, she would talk about like if I was going through life and I had a physical disability or whatever physical ailment, such that I needed a wheelchair, people would interact with her a certain way. But when it comes to mental health, people there's nothing visibly to see necessarily on the outside of the person. And so people have seem to have expectations about how someone should be coping, whether it's depression or you know, something, you know, schizophrenia, you know, dissociative identity disorder, any of the personality disorders. It's like people think you should just be able to get over it or like soldier on, or you know, and unless you've actually lived through those things and experienced them for themselves and really get uh how debilitating it can be to be at war with your own mind all of the time, um none of us can really say what that's like. And I think um the comment you made about that the person that your uncle died by, you know, as a result of mental health, I think that's appropriate. I think because that's what happened. Like that's actually naming the what-so of what happened. And does it make people uncomfortable? Perhaps I think, you know, as you were sharing, I think part of why we struggle perhaps with talking about suicide is if someone dies of cancer, if someone dies in a car accident, you know, typically there's this experience that we there's nothing we could have done about it. So it's like there's no personal responsibility where I am. But when one of our loved ones takes their own life, I think for a lot of people there's a sense of guilt, a sense of you know, blame, a sense of, you know, we should have seen that coming or what we didn't do enough. And so it's instead of being able to just express that and get that out and be honest and authentic about it, we avoid the whole conversation and we disconnect from one another, which just perpetuates, you know, causes more shame around it.

SPEAKER_01 13:49

Yeah. I I came to this conclusion, well, this uh inquiry when um you know my father passed away. Um he had cancer, and he chose he chose not to go through the treatments, not to go through to hope, not to challenge, not to um you know, explore other avenues than mainstream medical stuff. What do you call that? Right? And um that's that was the turning point for me. I went, all those people, when people say, you know, someone died, you know, of cancer, well, how did they how was their journey to the end? Did they did they give up? Did they right? So it just played on me, knowing, you know, I have that filter of mental illness. Not that my father had any mental health issues, but he chose, you know, to let it go.

SPEAKER_04 15:02

What's that? That's interesting, the areas where we empower choice in the you know, in the areas where we don't, right? So it's like I think largely when it comes to you know, and and suicidal ideation is something that I dealt with myself in my teenage years. For many years, I uh really did not um like really struggled with whether I wanted to live or not, just given the circumstances that I was dealing with in life. You know, I dealt with it with my mom. I wrote this poem once because you know, every once in a while, like it was typically once or twice a year for a period of time. My mom's ability to stay safe in in the community just got to the point where she didn't know that she could stay safe. And so we would take a trip to the emergency psychiatric ward at a hospital. And um things have improved. Like I really do think we need to honor and acknowledge how much things have the conversation has shifted and how things have proved. And, you know, like you and I both believe in there's no limit to how we could continue to evolve things and and be more heart-centered and be more, you know, for honoring the inherent dignity in other people. But inevitably, the question that would always get asked is like, what brought you here today, Miss Howard? And I wrote a poem about it, actually, and maybe I'll share it with you, Jeanette, because that question, like for my mom, like they, you know, she always felt like she had to defend what brought her to, you know, like, oh, did you take some pills? Did you, you know, do you try and cut your wrist? Like, what, you know, like was there an event? And for my mom, going to that place was like actually an, you know, her reaching out for help and an acknowledgement that she had exhausted the limits, like she had done everything that she could to keep herself safe in the community. And short of harming herself, like, you know, she hadn't, she couldn't keep, she couldn't for herself know that she could keep herself safe in the community anymore, which was why she was going for, you know, whatever that looked like, you know, a stay on a locked ward or going into the woman's, you know, the woman's ward at KMH, but that she needed some help. But it's like, even in the way we frame questions for people, is the way that we're inquiring into people's mental health as medical, as people, as family members, like, are we being thoughtful about the way we ask questions and inquire? Are we being over there in another person's shoes thinking from like you know, I teach leadership, I just started a new course last night, I'm gonna be teaching my students about communication. Are we being 100% responsible as individuals and institutions about the way we engage with people who have mental health concerns to make sure that the way we're interacting with them is really creating the best possible outcome?

SPEAKER_01 17:55

And like not like that's somewhere to hear you, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 18:00

Yeah, not like that's somewhere to get to, but like perhaps an ongoing inquiry to keep evolving this conversation, right?

SPEAKER_01 18:11

Well, this um I can picture your mother in that moment, and I've had I've heard stories like this, and what brought you here today with it's when you have the the the clipboard in your hand and you're asking that, it's because you're ready to check a box. So one of the one of the um peer support group's parents asked, can you please put can doctors in emergency please put down their clipboard? It's not up to me to fit into your checkboxes. I don't care about what's on your clipboard, right? So it was yeah, that was a moment I'll always remember because I didn't think of, you know, I've never gone into the emergency, you know. I've I you know I've I've lived through, you know, vicariously through other people, and I've had my issues too. Uh uh something that's always made me wonder why we're connecting you and I, but uh as a teenager, you know, uh I found a doing my autobiography, I found a uh 1970s uh school book with because we were doing paper back then, right? Um some of us still do paper, yeah, but full of poems, full of uh black poems, large poems, and uh yeah, so I I I so get it, but it's that it's that um you know the shape of our listening, right? And um doctors uh receiving nurses, that's their that's it's the sh we can see the shape of their listening when they ask that question, and it's to change that, right? To allow no shape, just open, right? So thank you for sharing that. That I forgot about that.

SPEAKER_04 20:35

Yeah, well, and then you like, I mean, like, you know, we live in a world where like in for expediency and and all of those things, you know, there are categories, we categorize things. It's kind of natural to do that, right? Um, all the way back to to my dear Aristotle, characterizing, categorizing things in nature and you know, government types and types of political institutions. It's kind of part of what we do, and all of the sciences actually that we have today really birthed out of Aristotle's work, right? Like they started as philosophies and over time evolved from the work of great philosophers, and um it's not that categorization is a problem, it's not that you know that hospitals or medical institutions have processes that they follow, and you know, we get that they exist to try and help create great care for people and and a uniform care that everyone, you know, all of those things. But I think um it's not even the the clipboard, I think. It's the beingness of the person who's holding the clipboard, right? Like, is the doctor, is the nurse, are they being like, are they out here being like, oh, this is a human being, and how old is she? And how many, like looking at her chart with like how many times has she been? Before they even go to talk to them to try and get a sense of like what's who could I be for this person? Am I being compassionate? Am I or am I being in a rush? Am I being like, you know, I'm am I being impatient? So one of the things that uh just as a function of my mom's experiences growing up, she would have to like if you asked her a question for my mom to feel like she was being like honest, she would have to give you like the entire story of it. Like all of it, right? And she's and and so I would often go with her to the emergency because I know that the doctors, there's a process and they're just trying to move someone to the next stage of the process, and they just need to hear whatever sound bites that they need to hear to move you through the process and make a decision about whether you're gonna stay or not, right? And so I would go to help facilitate that because my mom would be there trying to, you know, when they ask that question, what brought you here today? She would feel the need to go through everything that she did and justify and defend herself about why it is that she's kind of wasting the government's resources, right? And uh coming to this emergency ward and and really the doctor or the nurse is just trying to hear the one or two things that they need to move her to the next stage of the process. But not and and you know, not everyone has a family member that can go and help facilitate that process for the person with mental health, right? Oftentimes people don't have someone in their life who can go be with them and help them navigate the system. And so it's like, and I think it would make a huge difference for the patient if doctors and nurses and medical professionals had training around being bringing conscious awareness to who are they being in interactions and being responsible for, like, because we know that you can say the exact same thing to another human being, and if who you're being is compassionate when you say it, or who you're being is impatient, their experience of the interaction will be completely altered. And so it's like it would really yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:13

Go ahead. One of the things that that has changed that has changed, um, and I was uh a participant in that, and you touched on it, is that um many crisis served crisis services in Ontario were uh in the community, which was a good thing, has been has always been a good thing. Um but um many of them have moved to be also part of the hospital. So they could be called upon in those situations that you're suggesting that you know people often go in alone, right? And the other thing is to have a special checklist made. We developed a special checklist for the receiving professionals in Emerge, a mental health uh checklist, so that the questions are different, and if you know there's a scale, right? Uh and plus training. And um, so that's all because of people like you and your family who have voiced, you know, when they could, um, the need for change. And it's not that like you said, it's not that the you know the existing system was bad, it's just you know, growth. The system grow is continuously growing, and it's not static. It's just because we've done that today doesn't mean it's gonna change not gonna change and then over the next 10 years, it's always changing. And that's the difference between the institutional psychiatric ward where they were scary, you know, like you know, one flew over the cuckoo's nest type of thing, right? And uh uh whereas now there's you know, inpatient, outpatient, even in inpatient, there's different programming, in outpatient, there's different programming. There's mindfulness now. They they suggest yoga, everyone has their mental health toolbox, anyway. So it's it's the the um constraints, you know, because when you think, have you I don't know if you've ever been in those old psychiatric wards, psychiatric hospitals out in the country. I have been it was one full of the coup business exactly that that was true. Um so now it's you know, there's this openness that allows me to have faith that we over the next um 40 years that my family may have a count of zero. Right? So I see I see it too, I see it all the time, and there's and there's research, and in the world that we live in the voices of the people and the people like me who've worked in community development all their career has made a difference in the funding. So research is funded, new programming is funded now. Um, there's money, you know. It's take in the health pie chart, it's taken it's taking up some room now where it did it before. It was just the money was going to institutionalized institutions, that was it. So there's so much change, and that gives me hope.

SPEAKER_04 28:07

I think that it's a good segue to kind of talk about organizational change because it's something that both you and I do in our careers and and helping and um and how powerful, because for some reason, I don't know why I love change. I think change is great, but for some reason, human beings kind of have this like thing about change, and it's so interesting because I believe that we're either evolving or growing or we're dying, and that this is just part of what it is. Change is inevitable, but personal growth is a choice. There you go, Bob Proctor.

SPEAKER_01 28:43

It's on my desk, it's on my desk, it's everywhere in my house.

SPEAKER_04 28:47

Yeah, like change is all around us, it's happening, it's it's like it's built into the fabric of life from one season to the next. If you're blessed to live in a somewhere like we do in Canada that has very clearly defined seasons, um, it's it exists in the passage of time. Um, you know, I'm present Heracledes who never step in the same river twice. Like this is just what it is to be a living thing, is to go through seasons and processes of change. And yet, for some reason, as human beings, we we have this tendency, not all, but a lot, to kind of cling to the way things are or the way things have been, and um resist, and I and it's funny because I don't think it's so much that people resist the change, but I do think they really resist the uncertainty and they resist not knowing how the change is going to impact them in their life.

SPEAKER_01 29:45

Right, and uh the I love that because it's even scarier if you choose to be a bystander, it's scarier if you choose not to get on the wave and keep in the you know keep resisting. But if you choose to grow with it and hope for the best, right? And uh take what comes. If that and that's all in attitude, right? You choose to have a great attitude about it, then um not only is change inevitable, but it gives you it gives you permission to say, you know, I'm not in charge of every single moment of everything, right? I'm not in charge of everything. There's life, there's you know, change or change for me, change around me, change in my community, change in the world, and to go with it. You know, what if people, you know, when COVID hit, what what if all of us or some of us would have said, oh no, there's no way I'm going to interact with people on Zoom. Come on. Can you imagine having missed out on that over the last two years? You and I wouldn't have been here, you know. So we went with the flow, right? We went with the flow, we went with the flow and changed with it and and and adapted and you know, have a good attitude about it. It's not perfect, but mostly it is, right?

SPEAKER_04 31:31

It has definitely provided huge opportunities to connect with people that you know we wouldn't normally and for people to grow their businesses. It's interesting because when you were talking about um attitude and stuff like that, I just really got it'd be interesting to kind of look at, and I don't know if there's any statistics or data out there around this, but like if our ability to be able to manage change in life and change is just everywhere, and uncertainty, I think one of the biggest things that COVID has really had us all get is that there is no certainty in life. Like whatever certainty we thought really was an illusion. And so that is just part of what it is to be a living thing, is that circumstances change, things happen, and and you know, our ability to be how you know, this is why I love the conversation for personal resilience so much, because our ability to just be with the changing nature of life and deal powerful powerfully with whatever circumstances are happening around us, um, makes a huge difference. But if so much of our response to change is determined by our mental, like by our minds, then you know, it leads me to think that for those who deal with mental health concerns are going to struggle with change that much more. Because they're not only are they, you know, dealing with whatever the impacts of the actual change in their life are, but they likely have uh you know an impacted ability, whatever that looks like, to be able to have to shift their attitude, to reframe things in their own mind, to see the positive about the change. And given, you know, I mean you would know what the statistics like on how many people are actually dealing with some kind of mental health.

SPEAKER_01 33:19

One in five.

SPEAKER_04 33:20

Yeah, so one in five.

SPEAKER_01 33:22

Yeah, 20% at any time at any given time.

SPEAKER_04 33:25

Yeah, so you think about an organization of a hundred people, right? Like that's like one-fifth of that organization. So here people are coming in, like you and I as consultants coming in to help them create strategies for change. And and if we're not actually also addressing, which largely is not, like I've never gone in to do organizational change work in a corporation, like maybe in for you and not for profits, because the type of work you do is around mental health. But I can tell you that I have never been in a meeting in court, you know, the corporate world to talk about a massive change initiative, and then also included in that conversation is a conversation about how to support people's mental well-being through it.

unknown 34:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:12

One of the things that I've learned in my research recently is, and we've known this. We've known this, you know, Google and all those, you know, highly creative new businesses, you know, have creative ways of of um have created really cool working environments, right? Do you know how many work environments are so not cool? You know, they're still like you look back at uh you look back at the office environment, it hasn't changed. Has never changed, right? Still cubicles, still, you know, time, time cards, and time and and and lunch and you know, all that stuff. And while the top employers in the world are not them. And the top employers in the world are voted on by employees, right? And the flexibility, I I at a time in my, you know, in the 90s, I was um selling um, I was a marketing court uh consultant selling employee assistance programs in uh Ontario and Quebec. And we were able to get that in there because it was part of the benefits plan. And insurance companies had opened up their minds to it and allowed that to be added on to the benefits plan. So it was kind of like on noticed. You could just slip it in there, right? Whereas now we're looking at, you know, creating, you know, like I suggested earlier, is um inviting employers to have you know open training for peer support, having those conversations, uh really um looking at flexible time. COVID has an open conversation about working from home. Some people couldn't can't wait to get back to the office, right? Some people don't want to leave their home. Looking at productivity, you know, just because you're at the office eight hours a day, are you productive eight hours a day?

SPEAKER_04 36:46

I always say that to people. Are you kidding me? People are not working eight hours, and and you know, whether they should or not is I think a big part of like the value of people coming together in community, whether it's in the office or otherwise, is to build relatedness and to connect. And so, you know, regardless of whether someone's at their desk, you know, writing emails for eight hours a day or punching numbers or whatever it is that they're supposed to be doing, I think those social interactions are key to being able to affect outcomes and have people work together and team and all of those things. So, but I you know, so whether people should be at their desk grinding it out for eight hours a day, I I I'm not knowing. And but it's just it was always so ludicrous to me to think, you know, and I think this is one of the good things that is coming out of this pandemic, is that corporations, organizations are looking at and reassessing because they've had to deal with, oh, my employees can be productive and working from home. You know, we met our we met our goals, things the company kept moving, you know, the the company grew, whatever. Oh, people can perform from home. Now the question becomes, well, well, what does the like what's gonna have the employees really thrive, right? Some, you know, is it is it some kind of hybrid model where there's part home, part work? Is it all back in the office? Is it all from home? Like what's really gonna have people, and I hope it's my hope, that corporations are actually engaging with their employees in those conversations, as opposed to just making decisions based on what's expedient for management or what they think, right?

SPEAKER_01 38:23

Yeah. I have a friend, my my very best friend, she just visited from Ontario recently, and uh she works for the federal federal government in Ottawa. Well, they are there's no plan in going back to the office, and um but she knows that about half of her team can't wait to get back. But she's so happy, it's changed her. It's changed her, it's just changed her being happy about doing the work and doing her life all blended in together. She just, yeah. Um, and there are one of the things I there are surveys going around in you know, the federal government, of course, around this issue that you're bringing up. Um one of the things that I suggested to her is to have a Zoom call with her colleagues on the team because she works for the uh Canada Revenue Agency. Um, I can't remember with the numbers of how many people, but to just have a conversation to see how maybe inspiring they can be with each other, supportive they can be in this transition. And she she was scared of proposing that. Imagine just having a conversation about it. People are organizations are so are so scared to get employees together in a room, you know, with an open-ended question, right? And uh so um, yeah, just as a follow-up to the survey, you know, how people are thinking, did the survey properly, you know. I said I can manage that kind of inquiry. It doesn't have to be totally open-ended, but um just so that people can actually hear their colleagues, like you said, because in an office environment, there's a community, they're used to, you know, they have their their pathway in the office, right? Stopping here, going there, right? Um, so I think it would be it's good for morale to see each other and to hear each other's voices and to hear how things are going. So that's missing, she was saying. She was that many people are saying that that piece is missing.

SPEAKER_04 40:49

Yeah, and I think it's important to note that you know, you can um there are powerful ways to create connectedness, regardless of whether you're in person with one another. I think COVID has shown that. I've learned that for myself, especially more recently with my new partner. Like, um, and it's gotta be intentional though. See, I think that's the difference, right? When we go to an office, it can happen kind of more organically. Yeah, it happens things, right? You're you know, you've got your path, as you said, I like that you said that because you know, we the places like how we get to the photocopy or where we eat lunch, or you know, and then there's the desks that we pass by on a regular basis and and kind of like that. Whereas online, it it's not organic, right? Unless I intentionally create. And this is great because one of the conversations I want to have with you is around creativity. You're someone for me who's very creative, Jeanette, not just in your work, but you know, you have a side business that you're doing, creating these great pillows, um, that you know, I see as being totally connected to kind of just your overall stand and conversation about mental health and well-being and mindset. Um, but this is one of the things that I've really clearly seen demonstrated through my life over the last five years, is if, you know, in relationship, when when the structure of the relationship changes, right? So, for example, I was part of a coaching body for two and a half years, and I was like seriously in the back pocket talking multiple times a day and developed very deep, intimate relationships with a bunch of people through this coaching body that we participated in. And then when I left that body, I, you know, like people weren't calling me, like most of these people were still in the coaching body, and I'd kind of moved on to a new body that I was now part of. And there was like these people that I was like so closely connected with, there was nothing there. And then, you know, you get into the space of, well, did they really, were they really my friends? Like, did they really care about me? All of those kinds of things come up, and then it just really got no, you just didn't create what's next in the relationship. You didn't, you know, what's the new structure by which we're going to connect with one another? Is it a weekly call? Are we going out for lunch once a month? How are we well, how do we want to create? You know, this is how we met, and this is, you know, so if it's a perfect example for you and I, we're in this program together, right? You and I both have very ongoing, you know, I love that you said you're 63 and you're still training. I think you and I will be doing that till the day we die. I'll probably die with a book in my hand, um, which I'm perfectly good with. And like you and I are both part of this, you know, we met online in this with in this course wisdom. We're gonna be in the course together till March of next year. And what's predictable, you know, as much as like we really love each other and we're enjoying being connected, and you know, we we like I know for both of us, some of our favorite times each week are our practice parties on Sunday night where we get to be together with Heather and the rest of our group. What's predictable is if we don't intentionally create something new. Come March of next year, we won't see each other. Now, and that's not a problem, right? Because like sometimes people come into your life for a season, and it was like you got what you meant to get from the interaction, and and and it's perfect, right? You don't need to maintain like intimate relationships with every single human being that you meet. I'm not saying that, but what I am saying is like, what if life was like what if we brought creativity to everyone in life and we actually inquired into, oh well, you know, and actually had that conversation together and like sat down, you know, you and I had that conversation at the end of wisdom and said, Do we want to create anything next? And what could that look like? Because I really like I really enjoy you and I really enjoy your your your mind and how you think and your energy and being around you. And I don't know what it could look like, and I don't know what you want to create. But, you know, would you be interested in creating what's next in our friendship? But that like it requires intentionality, and I think this is something that a lot of human beings they're kind of like the leaf in the wind in life, not the wind, right? And I think the wind, you know, well, I don't even know if the wind has intentionality, but in my story it does.

SPEAKER_01 45:12

I've got gooseies running, like J-Lo says, all over because last night I was somehow, you know, just kind of go just a moment, you know, of going through the people. I've been here two years. I was in my in my community in eastern Ontario for 17 years. So I had you know a network, right? And I went, I grumbled a little bit and went, you know, if I don't call them, they don't call me, you know. So I I reject, right? That thought. Reject. Um and I went on to do something else. But right now, you're inspiring me because there are a few people in my life that with intention, we have schedules of contacts since I've moved, because you know, right now, my friend from Sudbury, you know, we visit each other more often being in Ontario. Well, she's supposed to come here this fall, but we actually do a Zoom call, you know, with a drink and uh and munchies and that. Um and I went, so I am doing it in some areas, right? Not doing it, not I don't what's my intention? So I'm gonna I'm actually going to be in action about that. There's two people that um every time we do talk, it's wonderful, but our our expectation is that we're gonna talk often. It doesn't, it's not that, you know, expectation and intention, two different things.

SPEAKER_04 47:01

I love that you said that. It's so great. And I think it's like so true for my experience, right? And you know, that ongoing, like, you know, oh, we should get together. Let's get together, right? And like sometimes you just say that because you're being inauthentic and you just think that that's what there is to say. As human beings, we do that at times. But like often for me, when I say that to people, I really do mean it. Like, you know, probably all the time if I say to you, let's get together, it's because I really do want to connect with you. But I and I know, like, as the words are leaving my mouth, right? We're like you and I are getting so trained in language and creating, you know, in wisdom and networks of conversations and all of that. Like, literally, as those words are leaving my mouth, I know that if they're not followed with a like, let's let's schedule it right now, or you know, like text me and we'll, you know, and you know, what are you gonna text me or what am I gonna text you? Some structural thing that would have that communication get fulfilled upon. I'm not seeing that person. I know that. I know as the words leave my mouth because what's predictable, not because I don't have a, I don't care, or I'm not interested, or none of that. It's just what's predictable is that we get busy and conversations disappear and it goes out of existence until the next time, you know, I'll be teaching and I'll like actually stop my class because the students will make a request of me, or I will commit to doing something with for them in my teaching. And I'll I've I tell them like I've like I'm stopping right now because I've got to write this down. Because if I don't write it down, I won't remember by the end of class. And what's predictable is if I do remember it all, it'll be the next class when I come back, and a whole week will have gone by, right?

SPEAKER_01 48:45

But it's like that's that's modeling. You know that you know that, right?

SPEAKER_04 48:51

Yeah, well, yeah, and it's just like it's what it works, right? Because I know I'm not reliable. My life is big, big enough now that I'm not reliable to trust my memory to remember the things that I give my word to, if it doesn't go into existence. And I've even said to some of my friends, like, if we make plans or I'm driving, like if you don't actually hear me give you a buy when I'm gonna do something, assume it's not happening. But it's like, how do we train the people around us, right? In organizations, like we're all I think we're always training people how to be with us. So, you know, are we training people to be with us in ways that work, or are we training them to be with us in ways that don't? And are we taking responsibility for that? Um, you know, I'll never forget my my stepson did the landmark for him many, many years ago, and and uh he had this really big epiphany around being manipulated by the adults in his life. And uh, and so we're driving home and he's just kind of processing this. And I and I just asked him, you know, well, who trained them? Who trained them to manipulate you? And it was literally like the light bulb went off because he got like ever since he was a small child, the only way to get him to do anything was to bribe him. Like, right? And he got that like he had literally trained all the adults in his life that in order to get him to do anything, they had to manipulate him or bribe him in some capacity. And so he got to then be responsible for that in his relationships with the the adults in his life. Like, how powerful is that to get that we're always training people how to be with us?

SPEAKER_01 50:33

Yeah. Wow. I got I got that. And the other um uh talking about organizational change, I remember recently I had a contract this winter with um the uh hospital system in eastern Ontario. Um and there they received permanent funding for a youth wellness hub. They had a pilot, one of the 10 pilot projects in Ontario. And so they brought me in to you know create the governance structure and and and do all kinds of stuff. It was wonderful. I just loved it. Um and one of the things was because the the youth wellness hubs in Ontario are based on what we as citizens have imagined this forever and ever, like since the beginning of my career, is agencies who receive funding from you know, all the agencies, community age receive funding, right? But you know, they're working in silos, right? Depends which door you knock, right? Well, that's what well that's basically what people think. So now these hubs are manned by staff from each of these uh agents, youth agencies. Wow, is right. So I wanted in in this initiative. Anyway, to make a long story short, because I see the time, um, is that um so it's easy, you know. I'm here in Nova Scotia, you know, I'm doing the structure, I'm doing all the, you know, the the words around my work, um, creating binders, orientation for new board members, uh, all and then at one point I went, hmm, let's talk to the staff, let's talk to youth, because we have youth, we created youth councils. Let's talk to youth and how they see the structure. Well, they don't care about the structure, they they won't even see the board of directors. I went yeah, so let's introduce them to that. Let's let's see what they have to say. Well, it was beautiful. People had a lot of things to say. Someone said, I don't have any comments to make, but this is the first time in my career that someone has opened up the organizational structure to me. Thank you. I went, can you imagine working, you know, your whole career and never having insight into the structure that's supporting you as an as a staff member, right? So that was really good. So there's there's that element of of organizational change is not just the work of changing the organization, it's the change within of how we behave with each other and how it you know it what something appears it's a waste of time to send them the structure and the and the policy work and the no, no, no, no. Because someday one of these people might actually be the executive director, might be, you know, a manager of one of the programs. Um, no, this is this is good stuff. There's and it's as in some organizations I find it's as if they own, personally own the stuff. You know, this is public money. Let's open it up. And uh I have to say that after three, four months in the uh in this particular contract, the uh hospital um VIPs, not VIPs, sorry, they are very important people, but VPs and the directors were really happy with the work we did together. And it was a great moment for me as a consultant that I did not have to own all of the knowledge. I was the guiding hand. And uh, of course, I did bring some knowledge, but youth wellness hub, I don't have that knowledge, right? They do. Um, so to allow them to grow in their new structure, it was a great experience for me. And I've checked up on them, they're doing well.

SPEAKER_04 55:31

I love that you do that. You know, I hear a lot in what you're sharing, and I think it's probably a really great place to end off this conversation and an inquiry to invite people into, regardless of what you do for a living or what you do, because what I really hear and what you're talking about, Jeanette, is like transparency and you know, being congruent, right? Making sure that all of the parts of what we're doing and how we're showing up and how we're interacting with people are aligned with what we say as individuals and organizations are our values. Like, are we actually living our values in our life? And, you know, do we have a mindset and a belief system, you know, to support the values that we say we have? And so uh for all of you listening to this conversation, I you know, I just really invite you, I think we invite you to look into your own life. You know, where are you where are you not being transparent in your organization or in your life? Where are you not being fully congruent? Um, where are you not being fully congruent with uh with the things that you say matter? And Jeanette, just really again, just want to acknowledge honor and acknowledge you for you know the massive contribution that you've been to people's mental health and well-being over your career. I want to just really thank you for being such a new bright light in my life and our growing friendship. And uh just thank you for your stand for people in in these, like really like in these institutions that they get honored and that their dignity gets honored. And uh thank you for coming here this morning and sharing yourself with us.

SPEAKER_01 57:11

Well, Amber, same back right at you. You are the powerhouse in my life, and what what would Amber do? And what would Amber say? I wonder what Amber thinks. The title of your podcast is so funny because I uh I often think of it that way. And the fact that um I've been invited here, the fact that we had a fantastic uh conversation, the dialogue is uh has always been great. Um, you're an inspiration to us all, and I hope that thank you so much for joining us for this week's episode.

SPEAKER_00 57:51

For show info, visit what what amberdo.com. And for information about Amber Howard and Associates' offerings and services, visit amberhowdinc.com.

SPEAKER_04 58:03

Find out how to connect with Jeanette in the show notes for the episode. Have a wonderful weekend, everyone, and we'll see you next week.