Welcome to What Would Amber Do with your host, Amber Howard, your weekly dose of guidance, inspiration, and strategies to have your small business and whole life thrive. We bring you incredible guests who share their real life experiences of being an entrepreneur so you can have your whole life work. Now, here's your host, Amber Howard.

Good morning. Welcome back to What Would Amber Do? It is my absolute privilege this morning to be speaking with Anna Forbes. Anna is a business strategist, thought leader, speaker, and founder of Smooth Consulting. Whose vision is to create sustainable and equitable business ecosystems where leadership, diversity, wellness, and psychological safety are foundational for Anna enables people with strategies, tools, and resources so they can achieve success beyond success. I have to say personally, Anna and I just met recently, and it's like my kindred spirit in the business world. I feel like we just kind of met and we're like, oh, like you're like the me. There's another me out there in the world. There's like a lot that we share in common. Anna, thank you so much for taking the time to be with me this morning and share yourself with my audience.

Thank you, Amber. I'm really excited to be here. And I agree, it was uh it's sometimes, you know, the world of entrepreneurship can be lonely and isolating, especially if you're, you know, sharing ideas with different types of people. And sometimes when you stumble upon someone who just you just click and get it, it it's it kind of uh is a pleasant surprise. So it was uh that's how I I view this as a as a lovely surprise and gift. Thank you.

Yeah, and I I love it. It's so great. Um, I'm looking for I've been looking forward to this conversation since we created you being on the show because I'm looking forward to having a conversation with like dancing in conversation with someone who's like so in the same, like views things similarly to me, and you know, so and and it like looks at business in some of the same ways. And I'm also excited for the like the differences that we might bring to the table. So I'm I'm excited to have this conversation. So why don't we jump in? Like, talk to me a little bit. You know, you worked in corporations, various different industries for you know, for decades. And then how recently did you create smooth consulting? What was that journey to creating your own business and what was kind of the the catalyst for it? Thanks for that question.

Uh, I'm excited to share. So, yeah, I worked in kind of in a corporate environment for almost 15 years, first at a big uh enterprise bank here in Toronto, and uh and then I moved into a marketing agency. And so kind of the spectrum of big enterprise and kind of a scaling um agency world, I love I was in the tech space and and operations, and so really always project focus, always going, always moving, never a dull moment, uh, which is exhilarating and also stressful and challenging at the same time. And and personally, I um I actually hit a burnout stage uh quite significantly and it dragged on. It wasn't just like I hit the wall and I stopped. I was like, oh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna keep keep on. Um I played sports growing up, so I think it was a little bit of like you push through injuries sometimes and and and you get back on the field. And so it was kind of that um that spirit a little bit uh until um I'm very grateful because uh I got connected with a psychotherapist and a philosophical counselor kind of at a really pivotal point and started kind of uncovering how unhealthy uh I was in from a mental wellness perspective and and not taking care of myself and kind of taking care of all the all the realms of of business that I that I was so focused in in terms of driving. And I think I, you know, ambition, ambition motivated, but I didn't know where I was headed to. And so in that kind of journey of of deeper self-discovery, uh what came through was I've I've always been an entrepreneur. And uh I remember kind of one of my youngest memories is I don't know, I don't even know how old I was, maybe six years old, but uh creating friendship bracelets and selling them on the side of the road at the cottage. And um, I remember putting putting it on a receipt, uh, I think it was like a dollar plus tax, and I added a quarter for for tax, even though I didn't really quite understand what tax was. But here in Canada, everything has tax. So that's all I I remember hearing. And um, and so that inspired me to kind of dig, dig into what my next phase was. Was I gonna continue kind of progressing in the career uh path that I was was on, pivot? Uh kind of there were a lot of choices, uh, and I started seeing the choices more, and um it really just started like okay, this concept of being an entrepreneur started percolating. So I was still working at the time, um, but a little bit in working with the psychotherapist, I ended up work uh hiring kind of a branding coach at the at the early stages just to play, just to like get creative and see what would come through in terms of ideas. And uh I felt I had accumulated a decent chunk of of my own career at this point that I could have pulled that all together and and created a business out of it. So that's that's kind of the um early origins of of smooth consulting. And smooth happens to be the English translation of my um my family last name, which is Leisho, my media name. And so um I thought it was also fitting because you know, smooth business, you know, business can be messy and it can be really challenging if we if we don't um if we don't have the right kind of systems and strategies in place. And and so I thought, oh, you know, smooth, take, take the smooth aspect of of the my name and uh also apply it in the business world and kind of create those those new models that make business a little smoother and and allow more people to thrive.

You said so many great things there. I I mean I love that the analogy or the the imagery of smooth, right? That I think a big part of the work that both you and I do with people is you know, we make things easier for people, right? Whether it, you know, it's in their business or in their leadership and their mindset. Uh so I think it's it's very appropriate. And um soldiering on is a trait that I think a lot of powerful women need to actually like confront at some point in time because it just becomes so much a part of our identity, so much a part of how we do life, especially those of us that are ambitious and driven and and want to create um, you know, just keep creating our up-leveling, however you want to call it, our life, um it can get to the point where like if it's not inside of if the work that we're doing, if the actions that we're taking are not inside of our sole purpose, like what lights us up, you know, then it becomes this like you know, what are we driving towards? Like what what is it for? And it can be really difficult to to stop, like and just and I'm finding that myself right now, you know. Um I think I haven't recorded, oh, I've been recording episodes of the show, but I'm you know, I'm in California, you know that. I've intentionally like I told myself months ago that I was gonna stop looking at what's next in my business, that I was just gonna work on the the work that I've got in front of me right now, which is really important work for the healthcare industry, especially like redefining some stuff in Ontario. And then I was gonna like listen for what's unfolding, and yet I find myself like gotta be busy, not don't have enough on the plate, too, not too much time, and then I'm in my head thinking overthinking things and driving myself crazy. So it's interesting the journey to kind of unlearn those behaviors that that aren't wrong. It's not like those behaviors are bad, they just well, they only get you so far.

They only get you so far, and they served a purpose at the time they they were for. And and you know, if we're moving forward, we gotta kind of continue to evolve. And so what does that evolution look like? And you know, it what you just shared in terms of that kind of I was look reading something yesterday on LinkedIn, I think, and it said something about, you know, is is the word uh hustle triggering? And I think so. I think it it's this culture that's been kind of approved and and set as this as the standard that is pushing us to do more, be more, um, without really connecting to the why and what is that serve. And I think you know, at if if you and I had met five years ago, I wouldn't have known the purpose. And I still don't totally have exactly it mapped out, but I am seeing as far as I can see right now, and kind of connecting to that next step first. Like where can I go if that's gonna be of value and of contribution, and allow that to be good enough for now and and maybe good enough forever, but good enough at least for now.

I love that scene as far as I can see right now. We don't, I mean, we don't have to have, I think that's part of the the whole fallacy of it all, right? Is that we have to know exactly, you know, what the the rest of our career, the rest of our life is gonna look like. I think it's like being grounded in what we want ongoingly and and being willing to have the courage to keep readjusting, not being attached to to any particular place in life and being willing to say, okay, you know what, I'm gonna keep being in the discovery of what is it that I want now and now and now as that evolves and changes, because we evolve and change. And um I do think that being an entrepreneur makes that easier than being in a you know kind of a nine to five corporate job because you there's more freedom to to recreate. Not, you know, I'm saying that like a generalization, uh, you know, I'm not that's not necessarily true for everyone, but I do think there is some flexibility there that entrepreneurs have that you might not have in, you know, more of a traditional workplace setting to redefine and recreate.

I think there's more space for choice in the world of entrepreneurship. I can choose how my day looks, I can choose what I work on. I don't have somebody else deciding that for me, and I think that's the difference. I would argue, however, and this took me a long time to wrap my head around that you still have choice at all stages. It's just that it feels it's the perception, it's what that feels like. Um we always have choice, it doesn't matter where you are, but it's the perception that you don't that I think blocks people, and it certainly did for me. And and I think part of the work of my entrepreneurial evolution has been embracing that unknown more. You know, I used to do it, I I I love traveling, and I couldn't figure out why I was this almost as different human when I would travel and what that brought out of out of me compared to you know when I would come to regular daily life. Um, and it was that kind of exhilarating exploration, like going into the unknown, I would, I would go places and not really have a plan. I might have like the place I was staying to start, and then that was it. I brought a suitcase and I showed up. Um, and I I loved meeting new people and having I've had fantastic experiences because of it, all because I was open. And so I part of that evolution of self-discovery was kind of looking at those moments where I felt that level of flow and exhilaration and enjoyment and going, what are the characteristics? What's the pattern there? And how can I recreate that pattern every day?

I think part of it, like for what I hear on what you're saying, is like a beingness, right? Like being open, being willing, being adventurous. I I think those things make a huge difference, and you know, we can bring them to to anywhere in life, you know, and also like being open and willing to keep kind of in the inquiry of like what is it that we want? You know, I'm here, I'm with my with my new partner Peter, and and he's a lot less structured than I am. And I, you know, it's funny until you get that contrast with someone else, you don't quite realize, like it wasn't until I started studying Eastern philosophy in university that I was like, oh wow, my brain is very western, like it's very structured, it's very you know, logical in nature. It wasn't until I got out and you know, I'm supposed to be studying philosophy, and it's like, you know, this person that is sitting on top of a mountain and they're discovering the purpose of life, and I'm like, what is going on? Like, where's the process? Right. And so it's not until I got up against someone who is like more spontaneous and more adventurous. And and and it's funny because I said I wanted those things in my life. And then there's like what my friend, uh, another gentleman I know yesterday, his name's Peter said is the insulting reality of things sometimes, where it's like you say you want something and then you're dealing with the reality of what you said you wanted, and you're like, huh. That's not like, oh, you know, and so it's like that, but I think the more we can like bring that um like that openness and that willingness to discover, and you know, we're talking about this kind of generally, but I think it it really applies to business as well. Right? Where because if we're here to serve like, you know, we and you talk about this and I think it's neat, um, you know, set the importance of setting intentions, right? Like, and you know, I know this for myself, like setting an intention for your day, setting an intention for you know, your business or a project or any uh any of those things. But really, if it when you look at what c it comes down to, the the the intention of any business is really to serve and offer value to someone or you know, in some kind of good product or service. And so if we become attached to what that service looks like, and then we stop listening for what's wanted and needed by the people that we say that we're here to serve, right? I would love to hear your thoughts on that.

Yeah, it's funny. I giggled when you said just listen because one of the books I pulled off my shelf, and because I know you're an avid reader, and I thought we might might chat about uh books and and kind of uh learning, but uh is is actually called just listen. And uh I'm really bad at names, I'm gonna check the the name. Um Mark Goulston is the author. Um, but that's the idea is you know, we if we the world of entrepreneurship is so noisy, of the world in general is noisy, and and there's studies that show you know the the the whether it's ambient noise or just chatter or um people talking at people. I think that's what I've seen in in as well that happens a lot. Someone has their their way, their method, and and it's that's the right way, and and everyone must follow. And I think shifting to a more um nurturing and more kind of a compassionate space where we're listening and and learning and and working collaboratively to move ideas forward. And you know, one of the things I've I've personally observed, I'm curious your thoughts in your observations is kind of these energetic and generational shifts that are happening. Like our younger generations are not standing for the stuff that my parents stood for in in terms of employment. You know, before people were loyal to a job for 30 years and and they would talk fondly of the company, and it was, you know, you've you stayed in line, and now people are more empowered, they're more willing to question authority, they're demanding better. Business is being everything in, you know, from sustainable environment, things are being um, it it the demand is is do better, be better. And so I think it's prudent as leaders and as business owners and as people shaping kind of where we can go, that's that's part of the equation, is to think and and behave differently going forward. And that that comes from pausing and listening more.

Yeah, well, I think the power like generally people like really have gotten, have become to understand that they have power in their in in how they spend their money, how they spend their time, how they spend their resources, and there's so much choice available. So then, you know, then they get to allow where they spend their their resources to, you know, and they and they got that that can have an impact. Um and and so I think you're right. It's interesting though, because there's this like neat I say neat, some people would have find it challenging, but kind of pull between like you know, this this push from the younger generations to move things forward in different ways, and then this like narrative we have about the good old days and how like there are things that were better before. And and and interesting to see how that shows up for people, right? So what what occurs as progress for some really uh lives as a decline for others, right? So and it and this is like not new. I mean, for any generation that's existed has had conversations about the good old days, right here. Um it's kind of funny when like I wonder what the good old days are gonna be in, you know, in a couple of decades and in a couple of generations, like what will be considered the good old days. And uh it's unfortunate, you know, that we don't always have a great reflection in our media and in in society about the progress that has gotten made. Because, you know, of course there are still things that aren't working in the world that we live in. There are still businesses that are, you know, and individuals and people who are, you know, not like who are behaving in ways that don't really work. But overall, the trend for humanity has been improving over time. But but that if you were to stop and look at the news, that's not what's reflected in the narrative and the what we talk about, right? Right, right. It's so it's I wonder how much of that plays into that whole conversation of like the good old days, because what we're listening to as people is you know, is what's being created in the media and you know, uh socially online.

Yeah, and change is difficult for people, like me included. I'm not I'm not any different from this, and I I don't believe you are either. Change it the familiar is easier. What we know to be true or what we've already overcome, that's easier than kind of taking a risk and doing something a little different. And so change takes a while. There's a lot of layers that kind of have to you have to go through to accept change. In fact, there's methodologies uh, you know, forming, norming, storming. You know, there's different kinds of theories around change management and and um adapting in teams and and how how different psychologies work in terms of mindset and identities that that are associated with it. So there's a lot, there's a like you have to, it's uh it's more like the onion, you gotta peel back the layers to kind of allow for that that forward um approach. And I I my family background's Italian and very traditional, if anyone is familiar with that culture, is very can be very traditional and set in a bit in that past, in that, you know, the good old days or this is how it was, and um some of it's good and some of it continues to, you know, we made sauce in September with the family, and it was a big event, and and kind of reminiscing and and sharing stories, and there's there's a place for that. And there I think there's also a place, it's not either or, I think it's an and equation, and it's it's how do we embrace both aspects, a little bit of what's been done, and let's learn from the past, because if we can learn, if we if we understand where we came from on the past, we can, you know, it's it's information for us.

That we can Yeah, you're kind of pointing to to tradition, and I and I talk about that in my the book I'm writing right now around creating measures, our own measures for success and happiness. And and and I mean it's two traditions a little bit twofold, right? Like that tradition of getting together and making sauce and you know, like, and you know, you create whatever analogies you want to business, like the workers are done in business traditionally versus creating new things like um like that's beautiful. The you know, what we eat at holidays, you know, the kinds of foods that we, you know, those things can be tradition can be really beautiful in that way. And then there's like another way of looking at tradition. I can't remember exactly who said this, but you know, they likened tradition to peer pressure from dead people. Right. So it's just this idea that the way things are done or the way things should be, or you know, and the impact that that can have on. People's ability to create for themselves what they want their business to look like, what they want their life to look like, what they want their relationships to look like, what choices they make in life be based on, you know, what it is that they authentically want versus what they think is expected of them, or, you know, all of that. So it's a it's a very tradition is a very, I think it's a very interesting and I love these conversations because they kind of just dance all over the place. But I think tradition is is is very um it's a very interesting top topic. And if you bring it back to the conversation about like how we operate in our businesses, there is very much like shifts in traditional approaches to how businesses are done. Business is done, or shifts like you know, you're talking earlier about businesses needing to be more sustainable, focusing on diversity. And it's not just like big corporations, like it's like this is now becoming something that is expected. That's the new standard for all companies that they operate in ways that are consistent with the values of whatever community it is that they say they serve.

And it's interesting that you pointed to values. I I really appreciate that. Um, I chatted with someone recently and they they asked me a really uh impactful question. And I don't often get these, so so it stood out for me. But they asked, What's what is the difference for you of values versus guiding principles? Because often in business, it's like you know, mission, vision, mission, values is kind of table stakes and and kind of the foundational pieces of of building a business, and um, and the shift to to guiding principles instead. And I and I really appreciated the question because values to your your earlier statement are relative to specific groups or specific people or specific incidences, and um may be the same all the time, and some may evolve and change as people evolve and change, as you get clarity. You know, what I valued if many years ago was different than what I value today. And so I think we have to create uh space for values to evolve too. Um, but in a business, you know, um kind of aligning guiding principles where the collective, whether you're a one-person show or whether you are and serving, you know, many people in your as a as clients, or you have a many people team, you know, the the spectrum um may be different in terms of the the where you're playing, but that core foundation of understanding what you're trying to contribute, apply, support, help, do, and kind of have those guiding principles that help with making decisions and help with understanding what risks are are safer to take than others, kind of brings everyone along, whether it's your customers or your your team. Um and it allows then for people to have differing values but still contribute to kind of that collective and in their own way.

I like that. I think it's like you're kind of pointing to like people's ability to interpret those guiding principles in alignment with their own values and how they want to be. And it and it's interesting though, because I'm thinking, I'm like listening to, and I'm like, it becomes, you know, knowing what I know from the world of like mindset and and neurolinguistic programming, and and you know, that we all have a map of the world. I think it is very important for us to be commute as business owners and you know, brands communicating frequently about like our interpretation. Like we say in philosophy, we always define our terms at the beginning, right? So it's like I'm using the word integrity and I'm using it in this context. This is what I mean by integrity, because Anna might hear something differently, or you know, like all of these other people, they're gonna hear words and bring their own meaning to them. So I think it it it is important, whatever that channels look like, however you're communicating that out to your your audience, your target market that work, we're not controlling the narrative, but we're being very clear about like when I say people first, which is one of the values of my business, this is what I mean by that. And it's so funny, I had the I shared because the kind of the values of my business are people first growth and partnership. And and um I I was sharing that with someone recently in a setting with other entrepreneurs, and and they heard people first like oh, you're putting other people in front of you. And it's like I was like, no, that's not what I mean at all. Like this is what I mean by people first, right? Like that I put people first, like people before, you know, not before profits, but just like put people first in everything I do. And I, you know, I create with my clients that they put people first in their business as well, whether it's their employees or their you know their clients. Um, but it's not like if I include all people in all of it, so to me, and you, you know, you really stress the importance of well-being and self-care. I think as entrepreneurs, you know, we talk about this more, it's hugely important. That stuff usually gets thrown out the window, especially I think as women, um, but I'm part of the people that's being put first. But like being in being sourceful in communicating with people what it is that you're whether it's guiding principles or values, what you mean by them, because people are gonna come to the table with their own interpretation.

I love that. I love the word context that you used earlier to describe that because I've seen that in terms of leading my own teams and helping other people grow their teams. Context matters. Context, you know, everyone brings their own lens and their own biases and their own interpretation, as you mentioned. And so if you spend the time to outline the context, you know, one or two words may describe it, but it may not. And different people relate and understand and interpret. It's like uh, you know, back in in school, the difference between memorizing and comprehending comprehension. So we can memorize a word, and in fact, I would argue there's lots of people who memorize words, especially in business, lots of jargon that's used, and it's easy to memorize, but it's not as easy to really truly have a depth of comprehension. And I think as leaders, it's it's our responsibility to help bridge that for the people that we're serving, whether it is our our clients or it is our our teams or ourselves. And so, you know, creating space, and I love that what you said is part of putting people first, is putting ourselves first because it's really about energy, and the more you can tap into a higher frequency and a higher level of energy, the that has that ripple effect that um is felt with the team and and and your clients and the results that you can garner.

I love that. And you know, it's funny, you reminded me of something we I was gonna say earlier, and then it kind of slipped my brain because that's what happens when you dance. Sometimes like things come in and out. But this relationship between resilience and change, you know, yes, and it's interesting because I I do really believe that we get what we talk about, and so there is a very powerful narrative that people resist change, that people don't like change, that people are uncomfortable with change, and I and I and I've experienced that, but I I I think part of it is like people's ability to navigate change is in direct relationship to their level of resilience. And for me, in the work that I do, resilience is really a conversation about energy because we go through life and we've got expectations about how things are gonna go, and then all of a sudden, you know, there's a disruption to that expectation. There's an experience where reality is no longer meeting my expectation, and there's a gap and how big that gap is, will determine how much energy I need to pull forth in order to be able to close the gap and get back to normal, whatever that means. I mean, you know, because I think normal is a weird word. Um, because it seems to suggest that there's some static place that human beings can get back to, whereas like I'm like, we're always changing. Can't like there's nowhere to get back to, there's no normal to get back to. So I think it's even funny that we talk about it like that, but and we do. Um, but the idea is like whatever your regular functioning is, right? You want to, you wanna have I and you have to have enough spiritual, emotional, physical, and mental energy to be able to pull energy forward to close the gap. And so it's like, am I tending to as a business owner, as a human being, as a mom, as a woman, as a wife, as a you know, partner, whatever you are in the spaces, am I tending to my energy? Am I making sure I'm taking care of my physical well-being? Am I taking care of you know, my emotional regulation? Am I like making sure I'm not leaking emotional energy all over the place or draining emotional energy with people in my life who just take a lot and not having, you know, for me, reciprocal relationships with people. Um so and I find the conversation for resilience. It doesn't have as much baggage as the conversation for change. Like there's a lot of baggage for the conversation for change. You gotta talk to people about change management, they're like, oh, I don't want to talk about change management, right? Because it's like heavy and it's like there's all of this stuff. There's this whole network of conversations related to managing change and that and people come to it really filled up. Whereas when I talk to people, I find that when I talk to people about resilience, it's it's it's heard differently. There's a different network of conversations. But interestingly enough, we're really talking about the same thing. And if I if I can help someone become more resilient, then how they manage change it it it's it shifts. It becomes easy. It does. It becomes easy because uh resilience is all about maintaining high levels of thrivability and well-being in the face of uncertainty. And so we shift the conversation because guess what, folks? Like uncertainty is life. You know, this week my you know, one of my closest friends died, like a gentleman that I've known for a long time. He was killed in a head-on car accident. And so 32 years old. Like life is uncertainty and being able to deal with and be out here and be with all of life, that you know, um, yeah, I almost think like it the conversation for resilience means that we when we talk about that, we take care of change, if that makes any sense.

Yeah, and I think I think I I really one, I want to thank you because um I've been banging my head for a while about how to reframe change management. It didn't sit with me well. I I I know it as a as a term and as a philosophy and as a function of corporate environments, and it, but it didn't, it didn't resonate. And I know the word resilience, but I didn't make that correlation until until this conversation. So thank you. Um and I think you know, in my own journey, we what I've identified is even in the world of business, and as we evolve, language evolves. This is true for history, generations beyond, you know, earlier than us. As we learn new words, as we learn new ways of communicating, there is this shift from antiquated languages and and terms to to more, you know, uh new language and terms. And anyone that's learned any other language other than their native tongue can probably appreciate how challenging it is, especially depending on on the language you're you're choosing to learn. Um, it doesn't just happen right away. There's a lot of study, a lot of practice, a lot of kind of the difference between written and oral and uh nonverbals and you know, uh intonation. And anyway, I can go on and on. Um but I think the same thing applies in the world of business. We're learning and creating a new language. If if we're looking to create new models and new business ecosystems, that necessitates a new language.

Yes.

And so we are why I wanted to take a moment to thank you was you know, that I knew something was off, but I didn't know the answer. And we came together, or it's coming through in this. And so now together we can we can make that next shift.

Yeah, well, and it's interesting, right? Because we talk a lot about resilience in the world of individuals, and you know, I like I'm a certified personal resilience practitioner, but like resilient, the same principles can apply to businesses, right? And then like the sum of the parts, like because all you know, businesses are made up of individuals, right? So how resilient are all of the individuals in the company is gonna have a huge impact on how resilient, you know, because show me a company that's full of highly resilient people, they're not going to resist change, right? And that they're excited by it. They're gonna be excited by change because they're gonna see change as an opportunity for growth, versus like seeing change as something to be resisted. Sorry for clearly I've talked enough today. Um, versus seeing change as something to be avoided because of uncertainty and fear, right? It's like you can reframe the whole conversation. And I I think that's very powerful. And I'm I'm happy to I love having this conversation. I love training people in resilience. And it's so fascinating to me, like the assessments that I do. I can I can read the corpor the culture of a corporation by assessing their leadership without even talking to any of them.

Same here, right?

Like so that through the assessments that we do in resilience, I can tell you how that, you know, and like we we roll those up and we do them at the level of the team. We can we can we can look and see and and and like shockingly well how companies will operate and um and then how we operate as individuals, because what we're assessing in the world of resilience is not how Anna performs under normal circumstances, again, that word under regular circumstances, but we're assessing how you how your brain operates when it's when it's disrupted.

Yeah, and also, you know, the uh connecting to the the concept of psychological safety and bringing that in is like when there's when you're constantly under fight, flight, freeze pressure, you know, what is what are you capable of producing comparative to when you're in a calmer, more open, creative state? And you know, the science I think is catching up to to help the Western culture, you know, understand because that's how we like to think and and we need the facts and the data before we can believe sometimes. Um, but I think it's it's that um, you know, and some pressure is good, right? The concept of creating diamonds, diamonds come under pressure. So some some pressure is is healthy and necessary and and and um you know true big ideas come under a lot of that challenge and consternation and continuing to be per. Um, I think I was uh seeing articles about the um what is it, squid um Squid Game? Is that the title on Netflix and how the um the director or the writer um tried many years and tried different diff tried to get the story um through to other people and finally Netflix picked it up and now it's like the number one show on the world or something like that. Yeah, and so um it's it that that goes back to that resilience and that having that kind of that conviction and that belief that whatever you're wanting to put out there is of value and and needed and and drawing on a stronger and stronger foundation of resilience. And I think just like anything else, there's layers, right? There's that initial resilience, like you know, for me to quit, I literally I'll say I divorced the last company I worked at. You know, I I was ready to leave, and I think they were ready for something fresh, and um you know that that took a level of resilience, but then on the entrepreneurial journey took has taken a different draw on on the level of resilience and and the energy that I bring to continue. And I see that with my clients in terms of at different levels of scale, what's needed and what kind of where they're drawing from and how they're drawing it um forward, and and kind of that it's almost like the push-up if you don't, or the you know, if you if you if you're athletic and you you want to kind of have a certain look or certain amount of strength, like you know, doing the push-up is is not easy, especially at the beginning, you know, when I first started doing push-ups, like you know, the ones on your knees or on the wall or whatever, and sometimes I still do those. Um, but now it's a little easier to do the ones where I'm I'm you know in a plank position. And so I think the same thing in business. It's you know, the more you uh it's about healthy habits and and bringing in kind of those different skill sets that will um really be of service in and and continuing to question those conditioned beliefs, you going back to that concept of the the uh peer pressure from the past, it's really getting centered around what's your your voice versus other people. And it doesn't mean that other people's opinions aren't valid, it just bringing back that that level of choice into is that my decision or is that somebody else's choice that's that's coming through?

Yeah, and you know, I I love that you said that. I think it the it, you know, we need all voices, but I think if we're not living lives that are grounded in what we authentically want, then we're never gonna be satisfied. And I think it's important to, you know, as business owners, as humans, like to rewrite this narrative that we have that you know, we we owe it to other people, to, you know, like this selflessness or whatever, or this idea that it's selfish to pursue what we want in life. I'm like, actually look at that for a second, like actually be with that idea. Like, if you're not living your best life based on what you want, then whose life are you leading? Like it's like you're like the we only get one shot at this, you know. And and I think, you know, the other thing I'd like to say, as leaders, it's important to understand the level of resilience we have versus the teams that we lead. Because what can happen in organizations is that people who are highly resilient, they invite change in as a means for growth because they see it as an opportunity. And if the rest of their team is not at the same level of resilience, it can create a lot of churn, a lot of upset, a lot of stress. So you're wanting to make sure that you know you're you're increasing the level of resilience of the people around you so that you're able to operate cohesively together versus like, you know, the the leader kind of dragging the the rest of the the executive, the rest of the company forward and creating a lot of upset in the process.

Yeah, I really love that you brought that up. And in fact, uh it goes to kind of the core of how I work with my clients around integrative strategies. It's not just about look, I can ideate and sit in a room with you and come up with all kinds of stuff. I have this is one of my favorite activities to do. But if it's not something that can be integrated, it will sit on that document, it'll sit on the back burner, it'll be, it'll cause consternation. And to your, you said it, it's that feeling of dragging your team as opposed to engaging them and and allowing them to go together. Like, how much more fun if people want to be on that that journey and on that ride together than than like I'm having to pull the rope and and drag you? First of all, that's that's a lot of work. And um I can attest to that because I've done it. I've been there, I've been in that space, I've been in that spot where I had to pull and drag, and or because I didn't know better. Part of it is I did I just didn't know better. And part of it was that you know, I didn't have the the models to support me in learning. And so a lot of it took my own force. My own my own kind of investigation going, there has to be a better way than this. And so I've kind of um for me, leadership is I've been studying it since I was a kid. I remember, you know, watching, and it started with politicians because that was, you know, women in the media and that's what leadership was, but it was also started at home with the head of the household or you know, that that kind of um place and going, why is this, why are these structures in place? Why do people listen this way? What are they doing that's different? What makes strong leaders? And why are some people having fun at it and other people are burning out hard? And it's getting some on some levels that's getting worse. Because I think it's goes to that concept of feeling like you have to drag versus engaging and inspiring people to come along for the journey. It goes back to that concept of giving providing context and setting it's it's one thing to have expectations, and I think those that's okay. It's a bit natural for us to to have expectations of ourselves, of other people, but it's an it's a different thing to not communicate and not bring people into what that expectation is and help them get there. Help them, I think that was what um I like to kind of reflect on positively in terms of my own leadership journey as I as I grew teams and and managed people. Was it was way more fun, and I I we had we got more accomplished when when the team was was united and had a kind of a um not everybody had the same opinions or that that we all got along all the time. It's it wasn't about that, it was about we all understood where we were going together and and then it it was lighter for everybody because everyone kind of stepped up and took a place.

I love that. I I think context is you know really decisive, right? If you see yourself as a leader of leaders, right, and when I teach leadership to business analysts at the University of Toronto or people wanting to be business, I say to them, leadership is not a title, it's ways of being and acting, right? So like if you see yourself as someone who's leading a group of leaders, right, and they're they may have different accountabilities and what they're responsible for is like unique, um, that's gonna shift how you interact with them versus like I'm the leader and these are the people that work for me. It like really changes the dynamic of the relationship. Anna, it has been such a pleasure to have this conversation with you. I feel like I could talk to you forever, and we probably will have another because there's so many things that I wanted, you know, some other things that I wanted to talk with you about. So I think there'll probably be another opportunity to have you back on the show as your business grows and progresses and you grow in your leadership. Just uh I want to honor and acknowledge you for being someone who just lives on the skinny branches of life, and you know, someone who's putting yourself out there inside of a commitment to be of service and contribution to other people and other leaders and and really helping them um have holistic approaches to their business and really make sure that they're that they're they're taking care of things in this integrated approach that you mentioned. And uh just for anyone, you know, just thank you so much for being on the show this morning.

Thank you so much for having me, Amber, and I'll absolutely take you up on continuing the conversation. I I uh I certainly lost track of time, and uh, which means we had uh, you know, in my opinion, that means we had a lot of fun. And so um, well, I certainly did. So I I look forward to to doing this again with you. And I and I do hope uh yeah, this this was inspiring to to your listeners and and anyone um tuning in.

Yeah, really great. For those of you listening, thank you for joining us. You'll be able to find out all about Anna and links to her social media and her website in the show notes. Have a wonderful weekend.

Thank you so much for joining us for this week's episode. For show info, visit whatwoodamberdo.com. And for information about Amber Howard and Associates' offerings and services, visit amberhowdinc.com.