Welcome to What Would Amber Do with your host, Amber Howard. Each week, Amber dances in conversation with inspirational leaders out to make a difference for what matters most to people. She brings you incredible guests who share their real life experiences of being a leader and what it looks like to live a truly created life of service to others. And now, here is your host.

Welcome back to What Would Amber Do. It is a I'm just so honored this morning to be speaking with and have on the show Heather Schachter. Heather is an international development expert with decades of experience on five continents, leading change in some of the world's most respected international NGOs and foundations. Heather is currently the executive director of Crossroads International, a leading Canadian volunteer cooperation agency advocating equality for women and girls and eradicating poverty in some of the world's poorest countries in Africa. Heather, for who you are for me, is just like a mentor, someone I look to, just the wisest, loveliest human being. I am so grateful and moved, actually, just really moved to have this conversation with you this morning and to talk about the incredible work that you do in the world. And so just thank you so much for sharing yourself with us. Thank you. Yeah. So we start these conversations, but how did you get like that? Like, you know, and that's only a little bit of what you do in the life. You're a mom, you're a wife, you're, you know, a mentor to so many people. You know, how what what share a little bit about? I would love to hear a little bit about the journey that had you get to being where you are today.

Thank you. And thanks for the opportunity. I'm moved by our partnership and having this conversation. So let's see. Um, you know, I can't help but start with parents and family. And uh, you know, I I grew up in uh, I grew up in Newfoundland, so on the east coast of Canada. Um, you know, what seemed like then a small community and just a in the fabric of growing up was always a taking care of each other and not from a like I'm better than you, but just uh it's just what we do, you know, we take care of each other. And you know, dad would make homemade really bad tasting wine, you know, and he would share it with the neighbors who, you know, at least seem to enjoy it. And then the cherry loaf would come over for Christmas from the neighbors, and you know, so just a real kind of community-based sharing. We're all here together, um, like that. And um, you know, my mom was a full-time volunteer. Uh, she was the girl guides of Canada, uh, the commissioner for Newfoundland and Labrador, um, you know, like that. And then my my grandmother, um, you know, her husband had um passed away at a point that required her then to go to work and you know, grandmother, and I'm 54, so you know, some time ago at a time when that wasn't common. So Nan went and, you know, got a job at the switchboard at the church, you know, like that. So there's some woman, you know, you were asking about even as you, you know, read my introduction, right? My there's like the there's a flavor there, perhaps, right? Of the the women and the the independence and the caring, but from we're equal. This is not because it's needed, it's just because of what's possible. Yeah, so so that and then something not happened, but like when I was five, I was in, of course, kindergarten, and uh the kindergarten teacher, I had this memory that she said, Heather, will you take and you know, so and so to the washroom, right? It's you know, right? You go in pairs, right? Buddies, the buddies, right? And uh that person was uh a Vietnamese refugee. And uh, and I can still remember going with her, and she opened the stall door, and instead of doing what I was familiar with, which was you know, sitting down, she jumped up and she squashed. And I said, I don't know if I said it out loud, but I thought to myself, that is fascinating. Where do you come from? And something happened. That's that's the you know what I then decided is there is a world I don't know anything about like that, and like really interested in the exploration globally. So I think that might have been a bit of a piece of that international part of being of service and exploring the diversity of cultures and views that in St. John's Newfoundland, I wasn't in any way privy to.

So interesting that those moments that shape us, right? And and um I share this often, but you know, Kirkard talks about looking in the rearview mirror, like it's in the when we look back, we can kind of see the unfolding of our life. But we, you know, when you were five, probably wouldn't have thought that that moment would have ended up in a lifetime where you've been such an incredible servant leader and contribution to so many. And I, in your sharing, I'm reminded of just life growing up in New Zealand with my mom. And, you know, I you and I share this love of of service and and contribution. And um, you know, for me, the same thing that that really got, you know, I was raised by a single mom, and and we there were always extra people at our dinner table. And, you know, we we had moments of like profound poverty at times in our life too. And my mom's faith, she would sit us down to the dining room table with no food in the house to feed us. But she had the faith to sit us down to the table and just know we would be provided, and there'd be a knock on the door. And the neighbor would just be like, I made an extra casserole and I thought about you all. So here you go. And and there was dinner, right? And communities supporting one another like that. And and and and I love what you talk because you use the word, and I think it's intentional care. And I think that's really powerful because when we talk about support, sometimes I think it comes like, and I know for me and my own growth and like asking for support, needing for support, it's kind of like it can sometimes feel like it's coming from a place of need or weakness or not having or scarcity, right? But when we talk about communities that care for one another, like there's just a commitment there that that everyone in the community be be taking care of. And I think that's um I think that's really beautiful.

Yeah, and even like the the caring could be so the dreams are fulfilled, you know, like it could be caring for anything. And um, you know, I love recently like this exploration around, so like you and I are moms, so parents, or you know, as people are listening to this, looking for yourself, like when when something happens to your dog or cat, or so when something happens to one of my kids, like when when one of my kids, if they're hungry, or if they're sick, or if they're cold, like that, I don't really and I'm maybe I'm tired, or maybe I'm kind of grumpy. I don't have to then go, well, I'm kind of tired and grumpy. I'm not really sure if I'm up for this. Like it's not a logical kind of now, will I take action? There's nothing. There's like, okay, there is something to do here, and boom, right? Like a some say instinctive. And so looking at what would it take for the world to work for everyone with no one and nothing left out, right? Imagine if that kind of like instinctive that we all must be well cared for was that for the world, like then there'd be no even we've got to think this through or have a summit on it.

Or justify, find a way to justify characters. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And and that's that's like the being a human being kind of conversation, but but I'm really intrigued by what does that take globally to have that kind of and and some cultures have it a lot more present than others, and from those cultures, we can we like here in more individualistic cultures, we can learn a lot from that.

I'm present to the the concept of Ubutu, right? This idea that, you know, I can't, I can't be the greatest version of myself, or I, you know, I can't, how can I take when we don't all have, right? And I know I'm not saying it exactly, you know, expressing it, but trying to put it in my own words, but this idea that, yeah, and and Martin Luther King said it as well, like in a very famous quote, like we like this idea that we rise together, right? That that um, and in in some of the personal development work that you and I have participated in, I know that there's this idea that I can't win if you don't win. And I think sometimes people are like, wow, you know, like um that's not necessarily true. If I look at my life like I've got something sorted, I've got a certain level of abundance or whatever it is. But it's to me, when I hear that, like I can't win if everyone around me is not winning, it's like the greatest possible level of happiness or fulfillment or satisfaction. Like, what's that possibility that could exist in the world if, as you say, everyone was well, if everyone was cared for, if everyone had their want, not just their needs, but their wants and their dreams fulfilled. Um, what could become available?

Yeah, exactly.

In that world.

Yeah, yeah. And the I am that you are, right? Is uh, you know, that's that's the the why for Heather it ends up being about poverty. And it could be about anything, like this is for everyone's expression. For some, it's the environment, for some, it's the arts, is their expression that I am that you are, right? Like that's the knitting that brings people together. Mine just happens to be poverty, and I don't really have a great reason, except it's something that I see can work for everybody. There isn't a need for it. There's um Mohammed Yunus, he's the founder of Grameen Bank, and uh Grameen Bank is known for really transforming the conversation around giving loans to, in quotations, poor people, right? So people with uh um an income level at the time, less than a dollar a day, for example. And uh it was completely ridiculous to consider that those same people could repay, could, would be willing to like that. And so this is 30 years ago, and that's now transformed globally. You know, there are how many billions of people who are receiving loans who have this income originally at that level, and they are more reliable than uh again, us in the west or you know, Europeans, right? Uh for loan repayment. Their loan repayments rate, loan repayment rates are greater than 95%. Yeah. Um, and and I'm mentioning that because uh Dr. Eunice he talks about poverty. Like, imagine that you go to the Smithsonian, or for those who aren't familiar with the Smithsonian, like a really uh iconic museum, you know, in your community, and you go to the museum and you see there's this display, and it's next to the horse and buggy, or for whatever it might be extinct, right? In your in your um culture or your community. And parked next to it is this display on poverty as a complete and extinct in a museum kind of conversation. Like we're done with that. Oh, there was that in the past, it actually served us in some way like that, but that is now historicalized, as my husband likes to call it.

Hmm. I I when you say that, I think about Star Trek because I'm a geek and and love Star Trek and and and like Gene Roddenberry was such a visionary. He was having conversations long before society was you know entertaining and ideas of you know how we could be with one another and what a future could look like that we could live into. And and so often on the show, they'll look back at like times in human history when there were wars or poverty and and they talk about it like we've eradicated that, right? Like that, oh yeah, like back in the 21st century or whatever, you know, human beings used to fight over things like water and food, and and they kind of scoff at it, right? Like they kind of scoff at like why would anyone ever have fought over silly things like water and food and land, like, and um yeah, thank you for getting me present to that because I think there's something very powerful there, right? Like that, that we could like that you could see that. And I think that's one of the things that makes science fiction so powerful. Yeah. You know, so many of the gadgets, the inventions, the things that we have today were created first in the minds of people who in in the world of science fiction. Um, but like there's a real source of hope there. There's a real source of like power for me when I think about that, that that you could envision a future where we could scoff at poverty, not make light of it, or but like the human beings were ever in a mindset or being and acting in a way where you know we we didn't share everything or we didn't find ways to take care of everyone. Um, you know, I just I'm like, wow. Yeah. Plus, I just really love the idea of being on a starship one day.

Yeah. My husband also loves Star Trek, so and he loves it for the same reason. So yeah, yeah.

Yeah, it was very philosophical. It's a very philosophical show to me. I don't know. Maybe I'm a philosopher, so I see philosophy everywhere, but um I was gonna ask you that question. Like, so like, you know, you're five years old, you see this young young girl, and she does something so drastically different to you, and all of a sudden you're present to you, like, and that's like this whole world outside that you couldn't even have imagined before that moment. Like, wow, people could do things so drastically different than the way that I do them. And um, you know, and then along that journey, somehow poverty became a stand for you, you know, and you're and I know the work that you do through Crossroads International is is specifically in the poorest countries in Africa, but really your commitment is much larger than just Africa, right? Heather, like in what is your what what is your stand when it comes to poverty globally?

Yeah, I mean it's the world empowered, is kind of the the the personal commitment. And then um, I mean, crossroads is a perfect expression of it because we stand for the end of poverty with the rights of women and girls fulfilled. Now, you know, you could almost take out in a way women and girls, because you can't have the rights of women and girls fulfilled if everyone's rights aren't fulfilled. But there's a reason um why it's women and girls, and it even points to, you know, as you're even asking the question about like why poverty, and then the next question could be like, well, why women and girls, right? Like that. Right, yeah. Um, I think it's just a really, it's kind of this Newfoundland, like really pragmatic, you know, approach, right? Not even like the right approach, but um what I think is the most pragmatic approach, and of course there's there's lots of evidence, right? That you know, if you do want a community to flourish, put it in the hands of women, and then in particular, put it in the hands of moms. Now, already that can be very provocative, like as in now there's like an exclusionary right statement that I just made. Um, but it isn't at the exclusion of men and boys or all genders. Um, it's really like if we're gonna get her done, if we're gonna get the job done as quickly as we can, then research shows, you know, if you do give the income to the woman, or if you do give the income to the mom, she's just more likely to put it towards school. She's just more likely to put it towards community health, or she's just more likely, right? There is no benefit in vilifying those who don't do that. It's just what the research shows that that's how it tends to go. So looking at our resources, I think the best way to use them is again having women and girls really have the resources they need to be able to fulfill on the dreams of their families and their communities and their nations. Now, if you don't do that in partnership with all genders, it will not last. So this is they've absolutely this is a partnership to create. And um at Crossroads, we have something that's called girls' empowerment programs uh in six countries in sub-Saharan Africa. And they really are a space, a safe space, an after-school uh in many of the countries. Um, it's an after-school program where girls feel safe, that they can talk about the issues with their bodies and then they can learn about the rights they have with their bodies. Um, they build confidence and um they're less likely to enter child marriage. They're then far more likely to break the cycle of poverty for their whole family. And I'm mentioning it right now because we also have boys change clubs alongside the girls' empowerment clubs, because we have found that that's way more successful, so that the boys along the way are like, hey, why is she more confident now? Or la la la, or why what's she learning? I don't have that same opportunity. They're really all in it then together, like that. So that's the poverty piece, and that's the girls and the women, as it's kind of like the access point. And it's a bit of a simplistic way to express it, but it's really the I would I I stand in if women and girls are empowered and there's a partnership created with all genders, we'll get this thing done. We will so get it done like that.

You know, if we if we talk about what I hear when you're talking about mothers and you know, what the research shows about if you put the income in the hands of mothers, they're more likely. Um I think it's that it's that that energy of mothering, whether, you know, that that feminine energy, whether, you know, and I I know men who mother, right? And I think it's there's something inherent in that feminine energy that is about nurturing and growing things. And so I can really see that, and I know that in my own experience as a mother, and I, you know, again, I I love what you're talking about because this is you you know this about me, changing the narrative between men and women, you know, creating new networks of conversations so that there can be partnership, like true partnership, and we can start saying something new is is very important to me inside my commitment that everyone knows true connect love, connection, and belonging. And um I think it's like I look at my relationship with my children. And then and you're right, like I they're sick in the middle of the night. Like it it's instinct, it's an I I don't need, you know, instinctive, I I don't know, it it's just what there is to take care of and tend to is their well-being. And and you know, did I have to learn and pick up some skills along the way? You know, there were parts of it that were intuitive. There, you know, others that I developed. I was young when I had my family, so did a little a lot of looking up and out at the community around me and how other people were parenting and what I liked and what I didn't like, and kind of created my own approach to being a mother. But I do um, I can really understand why that would be the focus of the work that you do is really empowering, empowering women and girls. And uh I love what you what you said about in partnership with all genders, because it takes all of us, like it's going to take all of us, you know, nothing left out in order to be able to fulfill on um, you know, a lot of the challenges that we have as a human, as a human people, right? Like global challenges like climate change and poverty and equality and all of these things. And a really good friend of mine, uh Siobhan, in one of the organizations that she works with, she talks about it sometimes for people who do the kind of work that you do, Heather, I can imagine there might be a bit of a sense of futility, right? It's like the the challenges are so big, right? If you're someone who's out to make a difference in the in terms of climate change. And so much of what we hear on the news and in the media is like having us focus on what's not working and and how bad things are in the world and and and all of that. And she she says it's kind of like this experience of mopping up the ocean with a paper towel, like they're just never going to be enough resources. And and so my my question to you as someone who who leads in this space and and has for so much of your career, how do you, how do you deal with that day in and day out when you have this huge stand? You know, how do you keep momentum? How do you keep moving forward when some people could say that like it's like drops in the in the bucket, right? In terms of what it's gonna actually take. And we have 10 million not-for-profits around the world, hundreds of thousands, millions of people engaged in work, doing incredible work to really move the needle.

Yeah, yeah, it's a great question. Um, yeah, I have a lot of different answers to it. I noticed so. Um the first thing is poverty has been cut in half in the last 40 years. Wow. So, you know, part of it is, and it can, I think, yeah, my hesitation is it can sound a bit superficial, but it's it's kind of like in a way what you focus on. And that in no way is to minimize, you know, the challenges, right? But the first thing is um there's extraordinary accomplishment, there's extraordinary progress. Like that's the first thing. And and I'm mentioning the poverty rate being cut in half, but there are many, many other statistics in you know, every area of the sustainable development goals that point to accomplishment. So that's the first thing, right? Like that. Um, and it's also not to invalidate when people are like, oh my gosh, like how do you make a difference? Like almost thank goodness they see it that way, because that can also bring like, wow, well, let's let's get to work, right? Like that. Yep. Um, and so then there's the piece about, you know, the challenge isn't even, you know, you and I are having this conversation still in a pandemic, right? So, you know, um, so you know, right now the UN they're saying that the sustainable development goals, the estimate is in particular for women and girls, um, you know, it's 10 to 15 years has been lost. Wow. And that's a big deal for the work we do and what we stand for, right? So that's that's a that's a big deal. So then there's your question. You know, like ah like that. Um and so, and then I get moved because God, I'm not alone. Like you said, 10 million, right? So, and I'm moved by who our partners are. So this is just in the case of Crossroads, but um, you know, we have over 50 partners in Sub-Saharan Africa, um, most of which are civil society organizations, right? So they're NGOs, but you know, many of those are collectives, like one of those represents another 50 set of organizations. And Amber, the people who lead them. That's why there's no there's no overwhelm. I know who my partners are. I know who those leaders are. Uh I know who our staff are, you know, I know who our own supporters are. We happen to have a model of you know, voluntary cooperation, right? So the way we partner is often through capacity strengthening and we physically put people, you know, our partners tell us, you know, we're looking for, you know, monitoring evaluation expertise, or we're looking for an expert in, uh, and we find them that person, they help, you know, training like that. Um, there's 9,000 of those who've already done that kind of work just with our organization. I know who they are. Like that. So that's why I'm I'm moved by I'm there's like um, you know, the urgency that comes from possibility. Not the, you know, emergency that comes from disaster. No, this is like urgency from possibility. I know what's possible and I I know who my partners are. So that's the I don't ever have the experience of like, what the heck am I doing? I don't ever have that experience.

I uh as someone who has the like real privilege of partnering. And like you and I have only, you know, so for anyone listening to the show, I I became aware of Heather, I don't know, about a year ago or so. At some point, like someone was like, Oh, there's this woman that I think you should connect with, you know, you would really love her. I think you you there'd be a lot of um synergy between the two of you. And I remember going and looking at your LinkedIn profile, I'm like, oh, she looks interesting, and yeah, like, you know, and then it's kind of one of those things of like, yeah, okay, like let's just kind of put that out there into the universe, like what and then I um started a personal development course, and I was told that you were gonna be like my participation partner in the course. And I was just like, of course, of course she is. So someone who like I've when you were just sharing, I I found myself like like almost like I don't even know what to say because I know the profound privilege it is to partner with you. And so I'm just thinking about all of these people and these organizations and these collectives and um the get the the opportunity and for and I know that it goes both ways because I know how you know, I mean, you can hear it in your speaking right now, but just in who you are, Heather, that you are just as moved and see it as just a profound opportunity to partner with them. Like, um but the like what can get created, what can get created in in the world in true partnership with partners that honor each other and share a common goal and and commitment and stand. Um yeah, like I'm like, I'm like, yeah, of course this is gonna happen. Like, of course they're gonna do this thing, right? Like I'm just like, yeah, yeah, it's like not even like it's already happened. It's in the Smithsonian or that, you know, they're already talking about the end of poverty in Star Trek. Like, of course, like it's not you know, and and that is powerful, yeah.

And I think the pitfall is it's like um um I guess there's three other things I see. One is that like how do you how do we as you know stewards of um of a vision share what's possible in the power of partnership, and again, you know, in pointing and thinking of particular um leaders of our partner organizations. So the world gets who they are, but at the same time sees the need to provide. I am going to use the word support because there's there's um resources needed, or there's some, it's like even you know, you could look for yourself. I look for me. Okay, so what's next for me? Oh, well, you know, there's some skills I need to acquire, like for that, right? So just even looking. So how do you how do you share the power and the capability already in place, but still have people feel compelled to provide the missing pieces, right? So I think that's something that's a great thing to grapple with and to still really show our colleagues in Africa and the women and girls that we serve as primary actors as opposed to beneficiaries. So there's like an opportunity to evolve language in a way I think that can really create new futures, but still then there's the how do you get people then to participate and see that they can really forward something that's compelling and will make a difference. And then the other thing I had wanted to say earlier is maybe I shouldn't say that I don't don't ever get overwhelmed. I do sometimes get maybe there's like a resignation sometimes, but um every single morning, right, I have a call where I, you know, with a you might call it a coach, right? Or where I go, here are all the things I'm worried about today, or you know, right, right, like that. And that gets put aside, and then I create who I'm gonna be for the vision that moves me. And that's kind of in the day, in the day in, day out. So I think that's also a key to keeping it's like I'm pulled, right? Like there's a towards a vision that will get fulfilled, and there's that ebb and flow every day.

Yeah, I think it's uh we get filled up as human beings, right? Uh we can, but if we don't put structures in place, and that's what I hear in what you're saying, that call every morning to kind of give up. These are all of the disempowering conversations maybe I'm having about the future that I'm fulfilling on, or who I am, or what I'm up to in the world, or the things that I'm worried about. Or yeah, like anything, right? These are things I'm worried about, or I'm like, and like, and I've used that. I use that, I mean, I use that at the beginning of the show actually. Ask all of my guests if there's anything they want to clear before we start, because life happens, and even though you could be really looking forward to this interview, and then you know, you wake up in the morning and the dog's sick, or you know, the car breaks down, or it doesn't even have to be related to your work. Life just happens and we get filled up. So I think it's a very powerful um for anyone in life, regardless of what you're committed to and what you're up to. I think it's very powerful to put in in place a practice of giving over or just giving, you know, expressing, because sometimes like even the expressing it in language releases it, right? Versus when we kind of like gnaw on it in our brains with ourselves and come, you know, like the royal we having conversations about stuff in our head. When you just say it, it takes the weight and the significance out of it and allows it to be released. And uh, so I I I I really love that. And I did want to circle back with something you said earlier when you when you quoted the statistic that we've halved poverty. I think it's really important that we celebrate. I yeah, and and really like even like regardless as our organizations, as individuals, I know for myself and my own journey, like when I look back, when I take a moment to really honor and acknowledge the journey that I've been on and where I am today. Um, I know in the week leading up to the book coming out a week and a half ago, I actually spent quite a bit of time reflecting on when I was a young mom and when I left my husband and the experiences that I went through. And not from a place of regurgitating or anything, but like just really getting what life was like when I was 20, you know, some of the things I talk about in the in my chapter in the book and where I am today and all of the partnership I had over that time and all of the different pieces that came together to allow me to be the woman and leader I am today, and really honor and acknowledge and and you know, it was like moved to tears many times over the week as I just got present for myself, the journey that I've been on. So I think I agree with what you said. Like we, and and I think you you even just said it again a little bit differently. We want to find ways to acknowledge while still creating that urgency of the possibility. Like, yeah, we've look how far we've come. And there's still lots of opportunities for us to continually elevate, you know, women and girls, and elevate people out of poverty and provide resources that are going to actually make a difference in how people live their lives and and what becomes available uh for them. And I think that's that's important, like it's really important to communicate that as well.

So yeah, and it reminds me like a practical example too. Um so in 2019, our International Day of the Girl. So there is an International Day of the Girl every year, and and uh Crossroads happens to celebrate it with a special event. And so in 2019, so it was in Toronto, Canada, and it was in person then. And uh the speaker was Rebecca Zoumi, and she is a lawyer from Tanzania, and I had had the privilege of going to Tanzania to meet her in August, and the event is in October. So um, and why we wanted to have her speak was um because she and um her organization and other leaders were advocating for the the end of child marriage in Tanzania. So the the law was you know the age of marriage for boys 17 and for girls 14, like that, right? And so uh when we went to see her in August in Tanzania, so what had happened up to that point, and Rebecca, she is very diminutive, like she's she's a slight frame, you know, like like that, and then and then she speaks, right? So um, so what had happened already at that point is um she had um she'd gone to court, so she's a lawyer, right? So she'd gone to court and she'd made the arguments for here's why marriage for girls should be the same age, right, as marriage for for boys, right? And so the Tanzanian government had heard her arguments, uh this the court had heard her arguments, and uh the Tanzanian government challenged her. They were challenging, right? Uh and saying, no, you know, like that. And so um when we saw her in August, she had already, now this is Supreme Court, right? And she again she looks like a little, right? Like that young, young, you know, uh small woman, perhaps she's listening. Um, and uh she'd already been back to Supreme Court. And we asked her, so you know, how did it go? And uh she said, well, you know, they had four arguments, like so like pragmatic, right? They had four arguments, and here here's the arguments we gave. And uh I said, okay, well, you know, what are you gonna do if you don't win? And she's she looked at me like kind of like, what do you mean? No, like oh, we'll just keep going. Right? So uh so she came and she uh shared her story, you know, in October 2019. And uh in a week later, she emailed us to say that the Supreme Court had thrown out unequivocally all of the arguments of the Tanzanian government and the age of marriage for girls in Tanzania is now the same age as marriage for boys. And I'm I'm mentioning it because with that, this young, you know, little woman what she made happen for an entire country, which of course goes way beyond the country, right? But why would I have any doubts?

You said earlier, Heather, you know, we we get what we focus on, right? And this is something that I really truly believe. And it's not that we don't keep working towards, you know, dealing with the things in the world that don't work and and and finding ways to improve. But um like I to me, this is very true about our view of human beings in general, right? Like if I choose to view the world in partnership, if I choose to view the world as like there are capable people who care, who you know may not always know how to how to act and what to do, and and may not always feel empowered because they're maybe focusing on what they see in the news or or all of that. But like I choose the view, I guess what I'm trying to say is I choose the view I have of human beings. And and I choose to view human beings as people who uh want to contribute, who want to be connected and want to you know, to care for one another and want us all to thrive. And, you know, perhaps I meet people on my journey who don't, who aren't that, but more often than not, I was actually asked the question earlier like, do I do I meet people who don't want to kind of improve themselves or closely? It's kind of like you get what you focus on. So I more often than not, I meet human beings who are caring and want to contribute and you you know, want to find a way to be able to give back and and make the world improve, improve everyone's lot. And um, and I can really hear that in in your speaking and when you talk about you know the these incredible people that you've had the opportunity to partner with and and meet in your journey.

Um yeah, yeah, and I think the the example with Rebecca, I think also why I thought of it is um because there was an accomplishment. And now guess what? There's still girls being married under 17 intensity. Like there's still like you know, accomplishment. Yes, incredible, and there's more work to do.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, I think perhaps that is an incredible way. I I know you and I could talk forever, but I think perhaps it's a the perfect place to end this conversation for now because there have been so many accomplishments, and you've accomplished so much and continue to accomplish so much in partnership through Crossroads and everything else that you do. And there's more work to do. So if you're someone listening to the show and you're interested in finding out about the incredible things that Heather and Crossroads are up to, there'll be information in the show notes about that. Heather, I just want to personally acknowledge you and honor you and thank you for just being someone who constitutes yourself as a partner. That's just who you be in life, and and that's who I experience you everywhere. And um for being a little girl, you know, there are other people who would have had that experience at five years old and seen difference, and perhaps, you know, not knowing what to do with that difference, responded in a very different way than being like enthralled and fascinated and excited to just discover something beyond the world that you knew. So just and I and I still see that young girl in you today. You know, that you're still that way in life about everything, and you really um you invite other people, myself included, to join you in discovering the world and and what's possible for human beings. So, just from the bottom of my heart, um, thank you for who you are for me and and for being that for others as well. Thank you so much. For everyone listening to the show, thank you so much, and we'll catch you next week.

Thank you so much for joining us for this week's episode. For more information on the show and our extraordinary guests, check out whatwoodamberdo.com.