SPEAKER_04 0:00

Welcome to What Would Amber Do with your host, Amber Howard. Each week, Amber dances in conversation with inspirational leaders out to make a difference for what matters most to people. She brings you incredible guests who share their real life experiences of being a leader and what it looks like to live a truly created life of service to others. And now, here is your host.

SPEAKER_00 0:27

Welcome back to What Would Amber Do, everyone. So good to be with you this morning. And I am thrilled to have back on the show Tina Bakehouse and Mitch Gray. We are doing something a one-of-a-kind, first of well, not maybe not one of a kind, but first of its kind interview where I've had multiple people on the show before, but they're usually couples working in business together. And this is a conversation where three people just love leadership, and we're here this morning to talk about our love of leadership and dancing conversation about what leadership means to us. So Tina Bakehouse is the founder and CEO of Tina B LLC, a TEDx speaker and coach who protects audiences from boring speeches. And Mitch Gray is an author, speaker, and the host of the Mitch Gray podcast, and also CEO of Mitch Gray Media and an expert on leadership development. Both of you, thank you so much. I know we're all in different time zones right now, which is cool. Thank you so much for being on the show with me this morning.

SPEAKER_05 1:29

Excited to be here, Amber.

SPEAKER_01 1:30

Yeah, thanks, Amber.

SPEAKER_00 1:33

Oh, you know what? I'd like normally I start with what's your journey to get to today? So for those of you listening to the show or listening to this maybe for the first time, both Tina and Mitch were on the podcast before. So I invite you to go uh listen to their individual conversations with me, which were both incredible. But maybe we'll start with and and we'll start, we'll we'll we'll we'll bow to Tina first, but um why is the conversation around leadership so important to you, Tina?

SPEAKER_05 2:04

Well, it's interesting. I've been I actually got to facilitate a leadership storytelling event for the state of Iowa. And so it really put into the forefront to me of what does leadership mean and why do I care about it? Do I even see myself as a leader? And when was that moment in time? And so I flashed back all the way to when I was seven years old. And that first moment when I had this big idea of creating a show for my parents' wedding anniversary. And it was going to be this dinner theater. Now, I didn't have language to say that first I needed to have a vision, a strategic plan, an implementation of that, but I did know I needed help of my younger brother and sister and to rope them into it. And so it started in that moment in time. And, you know, out came I, you know, mac and cheese, green beans, and swans to chicken patties with this beautiful meal and a great show. But those steps, that was sort of the foundation of my childhood. And as I grew into an adult, I figured out that we are all leaders and we all have different talents and abilities in which we can lead. And what we need to do is be talking about it. You know, my husband's a farmer and really is cares about soil health. And he realized years back, he was looking around and he noticed nobody else was doing cover crops in his area. And I asked him, Are you talking about it? Are you leading the mission for environmental health? And he says, No. I said, Well, you need to get out there. And so he took on leadership roles in the world of agriculture and started talking about it. So if we have those conversations and it's in the forefront and we're intentional, then guess what? We're going to get to cherish better leaders, have better cultures, and better people.

SPEAKER_00 3:49

I love, and and we're just going to do what we normally do. So feel free to pop in on anything that you hear. Um, I love like this idea of leaders causing leaders, right? Because it's really how I've come to see myself in the world and and the role that I'm here to play and is this ability to facilitate other people's greatness. And so I, you know, not only did you did you take on this mantle of leadership at seven, causing this awesome family dinner and experience for your loved ones, but I hear you causing leadership in your husband. And I know you've caused leadership from our conversations, Tina, with your son. And that's just, I think, something that's natural that you know that you do. And I think it's important uh that we that leaders are out there causing other people's leadership.

SPEAKER_05 4:35

I like that you say causing other people's leadership. It it because to me, I don't even think about it that way, but you're right, in whatever field I've I've walked into, whether it was at the an educational institution with students, where I would see a talent unveil, I would encourage and push and cause them to do more, speak more, be more within their own authentic self. Or if I was a nonprofit or for-profit making, you know, the causing, so the effect becomes this beautiful leader doing great things.

SPEAKER_01 5:11

I think another interesting thing that that you a story you kind of subliminally told, Tina, was that this idea of the beginner's mind. In other words, there's a curious nature to our childhood, that when we're about 11 or 12 years old, we begin to be told that that curious nature is dangerous. It gets us in trouble. We shouldn't, we shouldn't live by that curious nature. And really the story you just told, we can all relate to. And that story is in the beginner's mind as children, we know how to be leaders. And it really doesn't matter how we verbalize it. It doesn't matter if we call it vision, mission, etc., etc. It doesn't matter. What matters is by nature, we innately understand how to be leaders in the areas that were bent, in the areas that are written into our DNA. So you see that in little children that first start playing sports, and maybe a couple of the children become leaders on their basketball team, and then a couple of them don't care. But when you take the ones that don't care and put them on a science project, they now naturally become the leader. And to me, what's valuable in leadership is when we have the awareness to recognize the people around us, how they're bent, what's written into their DNA, and actually empowering those areas of life. And when we talk about leadership in the workplace, that's what we don't see enough, right? We don't see enough of that empowerment. We're so worried about the job description, getting the project done that we forget we may have misaligned this whole thing. And really it goes back to the art of the beginner's mind and listening to those stories and really hearing the heartbeat of what people are telling us.

SPEAKER_05 7:01

Well, and that leans into this whole idea of temperament, actually, when you say what's in people's DNAs, we're all born with leadership capabilities and capacities to be the leader we're called to be. About 50 to 60 percent of who we are is our DNA. It's how we're born to be. Our temperament is that what that hardwired uh way in which our natural inclinations of how we react, how we work, communicate, and lead, and that we use words and we use tools to achieve our goals. And so we have these four core temperaments that actually David Kiersey researches, but he wasn't, it wasn't new to the social psychologist. Hippocrates and Aristotle has talked about the four temperaments. But when you think about what is it that you're gifted at? Are you more strategic? Are you more diplomatic? Are you more tactical or in the logistics? Those are all beautiful forms of leadership. And what happens is when we get into company cultures and maybe into a specific job, and we have a task that doesn't align with what we're really good at, where we're instead of embody looking and having those conversations of, hey, you know, what is your strength? What are you good at? We try to fix that person and you know immediately put them into training and development, as opposed to having the conversation and saying, okay, I'm asking you to get the materials and the logistics and all of that. And really, this individual is a bigger, they're big into the visionary piece, they're strategic and the details are harder for them to focus in on, or they're really great at being that catalyst for change and diplomatic with the communication. And so if we can be open and aware of what makes that person tick, of what is their DNA and uplift them and embrace them, then your culture is going to be so much better.

SPEAKER_00 8:47

You know, you're both pointing to something, and I think it it's it's interesting. So when you were talking, Mitch, what came to mind is like, and you said it first, Tina, like this idea of I didn't have the language of vision, mission, strategic, you know. I wonder if the the language of business, you know, how we talk about like in communication, technical jargon, like making sure that we're speaking in plain language, and and really language shapes a space, right? So I'm wondering if the language that we use to speak in business has a way of causing disconnection or like almost like an othering, right? Inside of these, like because when I teach my course on leadership at the university, one of the first things I say to my students is like, what if leadership isn't a function of title? Like I'm here like to enroll you in the idea and have you play with it. Leadership is, and I know we're all in alignment on this, that leadership is everyone's a has a capability of being a leader. Everyone demonstrates leadership in different aspects of their life. And leadership is about ways of being and acting, right? But perhaps something within corporate structures around the way we language, uh talking about the vision and the mission and the strategic goals, and you know, actually causes a barrier to other people, like to everyone in the organization being able to locate themselves as a leader.

SPEAKER_01 10:14

So there's a blessing and a curse to language, right? The blessing is it is the avenue by which we paint the picture of our understanding. The curse is it's the language by which we paint the picture of our understanding. And what I mean by that is uh let's take religion, for example, to kind of move away from business. Someone says a millennia ago, an indigenous culture was fighting a battle on a mountain and they won the battle. And so they now identify that mountain as the sacred place where the god of war and peace saved them. Maybe another culture comes from Europe and says, but that's not a god. A mountain can't be a god, a god is some sacred being that we can't touch, hear, see, smell, whatever. And so all of a sudden you have this war that begins because of a definition of what is God, what is not God. And that's actually a really plain picture of what we do with language. Someone calls an authoritarian position a position of leadership, someone else calls a position of servanthood a position of leadership. And so where we get mixed up is we paint these pictures and these boxes, and they become our sacred cows, they become our eternal truths. And when someone tries to offer us something different, a varied perspective on that painting, on that picture, it becomes very personal. And that's what you see in the workplace is you see, you know, ever since you know, really the industrial age, the workplace became the place of authoritarian white males who superseded over everyone and anyone else. And now when that rug starts getting pulled up from under them and you start robbing them of their definition of leadership, it starts the war that we've seen over the last 30 years. And so it becomes this real um kind of gauntlet that we have to work through of what it's okay to redefine things. I like to call it redeeming definitions. We're gonna take back that idea of leadership. We're gonna take back those ideas that maybe cause more damage than good. But that takes a lot of open-mindedness. It takes a lot of courage. It takes a lot of courage on both ends of the spectrum. It takes courage for the janitor to now no longer look at themselves in the mirror as the janitor, but as the one that wields the power of beauty and cleanliness in the workplace that empowers other people to be able to do to do their jobs with organization. But it also takes courage for the CEO to now look at the janitor and go, they're my equal. Which when we all get in bed at night, that's the case, right? Everyone's equal when in our humanity, in our humanity, everyone's equal. Now we face circumstances that bring unequality, but within our humanity, when we all go to bed at night, no one's a CEO, no one's a janitor, no one is anything but simply human. But that takes incredible courage to sit with that idea that just because I make 20 times the money you make in my office is in a higher location and I can spend $20,000 on my suit, I'm not really better than anyone else. Um, that that takes uh it removes a lot of pride from the scenario, and as humans, we hang on to pride quite often.

SPEAKER_05 13:34

Well, yeah, and that makes me think of a conversation I had recently with my son where we were coming up, we were talking about the more cowbell. Uh, if you've seen that SNL sketch, uh and it's there's this, we actually had him watch it, and he didn't quite understand the joke of when the record guy who um was played by Christopher Walkins says, Well, I put my pants on one leg at a time, and then I make a bunch of awesome records. He didn't get the joke with that. So we had to talk about that. That's ego driven, that it's hierarchy, that it's title, that it's money. And it it was interesting to hear an 11-year-old's perspective that, oh, you know, I never thought about it that way, that money equals power, and money equals, you know, better status or better leadership. So we had a really interesting conversation about that. And I also, with what Mitch was saying, too, in terms of our word choice, our temperament, we are a lot more based on who we are, how we use words. Some people are much more drawn to the abstract, talking about what's possible, the philosophies, the big vision. And then there's others that are much more concrete of what they see, observe, feel, taste, touch. One is not better than the other. There, it just is. It's what we are drawn to. And the word, as we talked about, leadership, like happiness, like liberty, like freedom, are all abstract. And when we think about and envision that, what does that look like, sound like, feel like? You know, as the companies that I've worked with, the ones that are really strong and empowering their people, you know, one of them in Omaha, and you know, not far from where I live, they actually don't have a very big employee guidebook because they trust their people. For example, the CEO said, you know, you are healthcare professionals. I know that you know what to wear when you are working on the floor. I'm not going to lay it all out and you have to do this, that, and the other, especially because I want to wear open-toed shoes. So I'm not going to require you to wear closed-toed shoes because I would have to wear closed-toed shoes. So I'm just going to say, we're going to wear what's comfortable for our work that we do here in this organization. So it's giving the language and the power back to the people and acknowledging that yes, we do put our pants on one leg at a time and not all do amazing with records, you know.

SPEAKER_00 15:58

It's interesting because I wonder how much of this is tied to our definitions of success, right? Because so, especially in North America, so much of our definition of success is based on achievement and, you know, not necessarily like diving into the conversation about capitalism, but really tied to the kinds of things that we own and where we live and and like functions of our our kind of this human need to look good and you know keep up with the Joneses and all of that. And it was interesting because I was having a conversation about people wanting to fulfill on their purpose and and have that be some way separated from money. And I was like, well, it's it's an interesting paradox, right? Because we talk about, and and I know each of us are purpose-driven people, you know, i.e., we get out of bed in the morning, not necessarily to make money, but to fulfill on why we were created and and what we're committed to. And I have also come to know that when you do that, money shows up and we need money to live. Right? So there's like, but there's this like we have like hierarchical structures of leadership and also hierarchical structures of of finances and money. And I am interested, um what's coming to me right now, which is interesting in university. I took a course on the philosophy of sex. And and in that course, that we had a a professor come from a university in France and give a lecture on like the the over time, men derive their power from their mind. And women have, it's been like the agreement reality, not the truth, right? Mitch you were talking about language and how it creates a you know, we have like these agreements with one another about what things mean. And then when you challenge those agreements, we have issues with one another, right? So the agreement reality is that men derive their power from their minds and women derive their power from their body. And and even if that's a truth, then you can play with it, whether that's true or not. And it's not that wouldn't inherently be a challenge, except for we've created a hierarchy of mind over body. The people who create things with their mind, people who work with their minds typically get paid more than people who do physical labor or do things with their body. So it's it's interesting to me how all of these like the intersections between these kinds of conversations.

SPEAKER_01 18:26

Although, when we talk about language, we're really talking about story. And there's really four stories that are taking place at any given time. There's the story that our culture, environment, etc., is telling us. And that's kind of the picture you just painted. That's setting up these expectations, whether we agree with them or not. There are all of a sudden these expectations that we feel internal pressure to eat. There's the story that others are telling us, there's the story that's taking place internally, and then there's the story that we're telling others. And the crazy thing is, most of the time in life, those four stories aren't cohesive. The outer cultural environmental story is putting all these self-imposed press imposed pressures on us from them to us, and now we feel the responsibility to meet those. Others are telling us a story that may or may not be the reality of what's taking place with their internal story. And so we're oftentimes dealing with a myth from what others are projecting onto us, and then oftentimes we're doing the same thing to other people. The story that we're portraying and manifesting into the world oftentimes is misaligned with the internal struggle that's taking place, depending on our circumstance, situation, and environment. And so, really, that language that we're using is actually telling a level of all of those stories. So, for instance, and I'll I'll go back to religion again because that was uh a pivotal point of my childhood and much of my early adult life. You know, the story that was given to me religiously and that was so sacred in our family, I found out to be very mythical and untrue. The problem with that is that story became so passionate for a 10-year-old kid who wanted to be a preacher, that it led me down paths and thoughts and self-reflections that became very damaging. And as a 44-year-old man to this day, I'm still recovering from the damage that that story gave to me. Now, another opposite example of that is I have cousins who were brought up in the same culture and it didn't impact them the way it impacted me. And that's kind of the point of the value of stories. We have to be very compassionate and empathetic when we're impacting others because we never know how that story is going to impact you. And so, you know, taking our language and speaking slowly, in other words, taking inventory of what we're saying, how we're saying it, what we're doing with that, how we're painting that picture verbally, is really making an impact on those that are now kind of it's like when we echo through a canyon, right? How are those words echoing in the souls of other people? And I think the real misnomer is that words don't matter. And I really believe if we took a street survey or a leadership, whatever survey we want to take, I think on the surface, people would say, words don't matter that much. But if we got them to tell a story about a moment in life that words mattered, they would all of a sudden step back and go, oh, words really matter. There's an old saying that says, language words are life and death. And I believe that to be true because we're telling stories, and stories have incredible value.

SPEAKER_05 21:46

Well, and I love that you brought that up because I do believe that we our brains are so powerful in terms of the stories that we tell ourselves. And that was one of the examples that you talked about, right? In that where we Can build on anxiety, the future story. You know, when I've worked with clients and how they want to be the better leader and communicate more effectively by being able to present themselves well. Well, guess what they do? Their brains create this future story of, well, so and so is going to judge me, or I don't like the idea of being seen, or I just I can't do it. I'm not good enough. And they get shushed. And there's I was I was one of those individuals that, you know, I figured out and it had that label of why my anxiety during the pandemic of why getting on camera was scary for me, and why my leadership was stifled for a while was because of being in an area where it was uncomfortable for people to see a loud, proud, soulful spirited woman making change happen, not only just at the local level, the county level, the state level, but really thinking bigger and broader. And when I started to create, you know, to recraft that anxious story about how I view myself as a leader and you know let go of the past of the depression story, which can also be debilitating too, to you know, to affect and influence your future story. I really honed in on the other leaders and models of connecting with folks like you on LinkedIn and other social media platforms where it's like, this is what I'm called to be, being around other like-minded individuals who have the strong same story. They're telling themselves that they're worthy to speak. They're telling themselves they're worthy to lead, and I can do the same. And, you know, for that short moment in time, you know, experiencing what I did, which was very stressful, very hard. But now I'm on the other side of that. And I found myself, it was like this rebirth, right? Of I am okay with being seen. I'm more my authentic self. I'm not going to be conditioned into this space of worry and feeling small and what people are going to say, think, and believe, but I'm going to do and allow the purpose that we that I care about. And that is the world needs effective communication. And I want to help people get there and lead in the way that we're called to lead.

SPEAKER_00 24:17

Yeah, one of the things that really um stood out for me and what you were talking about about those stories is in is the importance of congruence. Like for me, that the further I go on this journey, like if I were to talk for myself, like the most important quality, not just as a leader, but as a human being, is like this idea of being congruent and you know, that alignment between like what I say to myself and the world, or you know, who I be, the actions I take, how people experience me, right? Is there I is it their alignment between who I say I am and then the the experience that people have of my communication of being with me? Um and I'd be interested to know for for and I I've told this story many times and I'll probably tell it many times until I die. But this like, you know, the story of Nelson Mandela was giving this a speech to like a crowd of very hostile people, and he talked for hours. And by the end of the conversation, he won them over to his his cause. And uh Desmond Tuju was being interviewed by the media afterwards, and they asked him, like, how does Mandela do that? Like how he has no notes, no speech, no prepared speech, but he's always on point. Uh he always, you know, he never varies from his message. And and Desmond Sutu's response was that Nelson Mandela was 100% congruent in what he said, what he believed, what he did, and how you know, um, what he thought. And and so I'm curious to know for the both of you, like what's your experience of of of that and and and how do you yeah, how does the idea of congruence kind of dance for you with leadership?

SPEAKER_01 26:05

Well, we could almost exchange that with authenticity, right? And that's it's kind of become a buzzword in a way. In fact, I feel like it's almost overused that people are losing this sensibility of authenticity in a way. Um but when we're talking about elements of that congruency or authenticity, we're talking about alignment, we're talking about passion, we're talking about knowing oneself, we're talking about a reflection that they are 100% okay with. And that's sometimes what's what gets lost in translation is it's that reflection in the mirror that we're okay with or we're not, and there's really no in between. And we kind of ebb and flow out of that. Tina, you were kind of alluding to that a little bit, right? We get up in the morning and sometimes we look at our hair and it's like I'm awesome today. And then we get the next day we get up and we look at our hair, and we're like, oh, this is not happening. And that's kind of symbolic of life, is some days we're really okay in our own skin, and some days we're scratching ourselves trying to figure out what's going on. But when we can, when we can really rest in that congruency, when we have that alignment, that passion, and that internal compass that is now simply manifesting itself into what others see. You know, I have a similar story, honestly, as a speaker. When I was going through preaching school, my professors, I failed a preaching class one semester because I didn't have outlines. I never used outlines. I've given over 10,000 sermons and I don't use outlines. I don't need to because A, I know what I'm talking about, B, I'm passionate about it, and C, it doesn't really matter what I know what I'm talking about, or if I'm passionate about it, if no one's connecting with it. So connection becomes the supreme authority when we're giving a talk, a speech, a relatability type instance. And in seeing videos of Nelson Mandela and seeing the great orators of humankind, that connection point, that humanity was the first and most important priority. But the only way you can do, the only way you can be connected with others is to be courageous enough to have that vulnerability to say, I'm human, here's my humanity, and here's what I think people can do with this humanity. Now, show me yours. And when we apply that to the idea of leadership, that removes the hierarchy. Because now all of a sudden we're encouraging leaders to do what I call lead from their humanity, which means we're vulnerable, we're courageous, we're just simply flesh and blood walking around a floating rock in the universe, and we really don't know what's going on in life. We're just all doing the best we can. And a Nelson Mandela story was an extreme story where he learned that in total isolation, total unjust punishment, and that does something to the human spirit. It makes it vulnerable. And when we can all live from that, I'm gonna call it congruent vulnerability, it now brings a unity amongst others that deserves real power, and it brings about power that can make incredible change in the world.

SPEAKER_05 29:11

Well, and I would say to uh to add to that, Mitch, you know, I have a theater background and so the performer in me, and I think about you know, communication can be a performance, but really it's a spectrum, right? It we have performance, we have presenting, and then we have conversation. And so if you think of performances, I'm I'm talking at you. I'm I'm you know, I love Broadway and they embody the characters, they wear the costumes, and I've done that at the collegiate level, the community theater level, etc. And so no one is communicating, they're just sitting and they're you're presenting at them, you know, you're performing at them. And then the second level is the two, you know, when you facilitate a workshop, you know, you're presenting an idea, you know, I'm giving it to you, and you know that they're hopefully reciprocating it. But the most powerful piece, I think, when we think of leadership and how we can have that congruent vulnerability and we're more powerful and more connected, because communication is a co-creation with two people, it's a sending and receiving of ongoing messages, it's a conversation, it's the width. And to me, it's changing that preposition, which is the power of language that can get us in a unified awareness. You know, Deepak talks about uh when you are in this energy space, right? Is first you want to be aware, label, label it. And that was super helpful for me when I was like, okay, I am aware that I am allowing what I think other people are thinking about me, affect and influence the energy that I'm putting out there, which is affecting and influencing my body, which is affecting and influencing from the big picture, my leadership overall, and then the communication and all this trickle-down effect. And so when I was able to label it and give language to it, I could shift the mindset, I could shift the way in which I perceived it, and then how the energy that I felt about it was able to then affect my body, affect my behavior, affect how I communicated with other people.

SPEAKER_00 31:24

You both have pointed to like the this being vulnerable. And I remember, you know, recently I did an interview, and for the first time I talked publicly about an experience I had when when I was going through like the when I left my husband. So like 20, 20 years old, two small kids on my own. You know, my whatever self-esteem I had going into that that marriage like was obliterated by the time I walked out of it. And um in the interview, I share publicly for the first time about an incident where I almost took my own life because I was just hopeless. Like it was like a moment where I did not see any way of being able to turn around the situation that I was in, and I didn't have the tools then. Uh, you know, people often ask me, What would I tell my younger self? And it's like you're not alone and that you can ask for help. Like I didn't know that I could, you know, I made my bed talking about all of these like things that we get gifted from religion and and from our parents and stuff without without you know, they mean well, but you know, there was so much shame around, you know, I was uh the daughter of an elder in our church and I got pregnant out of wedlock as a teenager. You know, there's just so much shame. You make your bed, you fix it, right? I I didn't have access to being able to ask for help. And so I shared this story publicly, and when it came time to share the interview, I had no problem sharing it on Facebook. I didn't even have a problem sharing it on Instagram. And when it came time to share the interview on LinkedIn, I remember having this moment and I was like, hmm, like, and I I mean I get sometimes it's appropriate to have different like social media strategies for different platforms, and you're trying to talk your, you know, but what what stocked me was not like it was a consideration around well, what might people think, you know, in a more professional setting, what might people think about that moment of like, you know, I guess in some way probably still lives for me of weakness, right? And and um, and ultimately I shared it. And I remember talking to my friend, the woman who interviewed me, because it was on her YouTube channel that we did that interview, and uh she said, they'll just love you more for it, Amber. People will just love you more for your vulnerability. Um and and I I share about my past with people because I think it's important for people to understand that it's possible that no matter where you are in life, like that that that is stories, stories of overcoming and like and and humanizing that. Like we're not it's you don't have to be a superhero to overcome. Like we all do that in various different ways in our life, and and I think it's important that people hear, especially you know, if there are other teenage moms out there or single parents or whatever, that you can turn things around in your life, and you're you know, I love Fatima's messaging, like there's hope for anyone at any age at any time, right? So one of the things that's kind of been a thread that's been coming up in this conversation is like this idea of being present. Right? So it's like for your clients, teen are who are engaged in the what ifs, like they're out there in the future. They're either well, what if I do this and it doesn't work out, which is a very human tendency, right? We t we don't ever we're not like what if everything goes great. It's like always the catastrophe what ifs, right? The catastrophic at what ifs. Um but the and and and in in this like presence and communication. And I've said this to to my students before, like when I'm present with you, like a hundred percent like being with you in the communication, instead of trying to be in my head trying to figure out what to say, you always know what to say. There's that when you're actually dancing in conversation, being present with another human being or group of human beings, there's never anything to figure out. And there may be moments of, do I have enough courage to share that? Or am I comfortable sharing that right now? You you what what there is to communicate will be there. And you will then maybe have a consideration or a conversation with yourself about am I comfortable to share that? You know. Um but I think this this idea of of leadership and being present with people leaves people with the experience that they matter.

SPEAKER_05 35:42

Well, and I think it makes me think of the triangle of improvisation where you want to first letting go, letting go of all the things, and then you want to notice more, notice the nonverbal cues, and then finally use everything. What is the relationship that you have with this individual? You know, there's a social and content layer for every communication. So the social layer is that established relationship. You know, is it your boss, your supervisor, your friend, your colleague, whatever? Have you known them a long time? And that if and have you had an argument with each other in the past or recently, because that can affect and influence future communications. So that social layer then affects content messaging. And so if you can think about those beautiful, the yes anding, if you will, uh, as an improv improviser, it's the yes is I hear and I see you, and I'm accepting you for who you are and what you're saying in this moment. And I'm out of my head about it. The and part is then adding something to it. So whether it's just a okay, I'm accepting you and I'm taking it in, whether it's a nod or a nonverbal cue, maybe it's no words at all. It's just I'm giving you this space to listen and to talk, but I'm letting go of my judgments, my thoughts, me, and being about you, and then noticing more of what is the person really saying? What's the subtext? What are they not saying that they should be saying? And using everything, you know, all the things. What moment in time are we in? Because, like, even thinking in terms of communication during a pandemic, the using of everything and the noticing more and the letting go has been really powerful for me because some people are a lot more comfortable with virtual communication still because of anxiety and acknowledging that and being okay with that, versus others are you know still good with face-to-face, but I want you to be more than six feet apart and noticing that and being aware and letting that person, that beingness, be there. And I love Amber that you've said it, you know, before, but I love if if you are 100% in the space, whether it is you're leading a team uh internally, or like Mitch, when you're facilitating a workshop that's a deep dive for those leaders to better themselves, or me, you know, coaching clients to be able to do that talk so that they can empower the world with their ideas. If we're 100% there and out of our heads, but into our heart, we let the passion lead us into the communication. And the fear is gone. We don't worry about what we say, we just say it and we allow it to be said.

SPEAKER_01 38:35

Courage comes in waves and phases. And and I think that's something that really is it's it's really pivotal for people that are considering a new way of leading. Um, because we're really redefining what leadership is, we're redefining the spaces that you exist within leadership, we're redefining this idea that a seven-year-old can actually be a leader in the world. And so, you know, having that patience with ourselves first is critical to allowing to allowing ourselves to summon the courage needed to make make the small changes. Amber, I love your your personal story about um you know your early adulthood. And and uh I have actually kind of a kind of a similar story in 2017 when my lab that was my last inspirational book, The Gathering Place. Um, I opened that book with for the first time telling the story of when I had a moment of trying to take my own life. And my kids didn't know that story, my friends didn't know that story. No one really knew that story. And to publish it in a book was very similar to what you went through. You're kind of gifting it to the world, and you're like, I'm either gonna look like an idiot, hate myself more, or everyone's gonna hate. Like, there's never this idea that this circle of people might just come around and and um you know support you. And so, but that that is that kind of kind of courageous step that you have to threshold that you have to step through. And and here's here's the ramifications of us telling those stories. I'll go back, uh gosh, 25 years, I guess, when I was leading uh a high fashion retail store at the time. Had a young kid that worked for me, great kid. He was in high school, I think he was a junior or senior in high school. And I've always been pretty open with sharing my story with people for the most part. And um, much like you, Amber, I had uh my my girlfriend, my senior of high school got pregnant. You know, I got kicked out of my house, I was homeless for a year, blackballed from the church. I mean, very similar to the, you know, kind of the story you're talking. And the advantage for me was I was a guy, so I didn't face near the turmoil and fire that unfortunately females face in those situations. But uh but it was a tough phase. And I had shared that story with um some of my workers, some of the teenagers, especially when they were going through struggles. Well, one night we're closing our store down, and there was a knock on the gate of the front of the store, and one of my teammates comes back and goes, Mitch, uh, so-and-so's here. And he's like weeping. I'm like, well, let him in. Like if he's weeping and knocking on the gate, let him in. So the kid comes in and he comes back to the back and he just gives me a big hug and he goes, Mitch, I don't have anyone to go to. And I'm like, What's going on? And he says, My girlfriend's pregnant, and I had to tell my parents tonight, and it did not go well, and I didn't know who else to go to. And the whole point of that is I learned early on, I couldn't have been 22 at the time when that incident happened. What I learned early on is when I can expose my vulnerabilities and my experiences, even to the people who work for me, and quotes for those listening, when I can still give have the courage to give that vulnerability, it creates a human connection. That trust goes up, relatability grows, and that connection and unity just it takes on a life of its own. And that was 20 something years later. And to this day, that kid, I still call him a kid, he still sends me a text message, he still reaches out to me, and I take pride in those. And and what what I have a passion for leaders to hear is this whole facade that we put on, this whole fakeness, you know. That's I don't like the saying, you know, Sunday church clothes, because what that tells us is everyone's just dressing up to play a role, and we do that in the workplace. We think we have to look a certain way, play a certain part, and it's like, let's just sit around the campfire and share those stories of vulnerability. And what leaders need to hear is when you do that, you actually become a more effective leader because now people see who you really are, and that takes courage.

SPEAKER_05 43:05

They see you as this person, right? The human being that you are, as opposed to on this pedestal or higher up. And I think about uh one of my clients I worked with who was doing a TED X talk, and she's a leader and a CEO of a company. And she, first of all, the very first time we met, she looks at me and she's like, I know I have to do this talk, but I want to tell you my number one fear is what if they watch me and I'm boring? And I think you won't be boring if you speak from the heart. And ironically, she was talking about leadership in her TEDx talk. And she has always, you know, had the respect. I mean, her people respect her, but even this kind, hardworking, beautiful soul had that deep fear and the fear of being seen, and the fear of that, you know, we want to be funny. We want people to like what we have to say. But I I I love, Mitch, what you're talking about too is that. Even in that leadership role, you are a human being to your the person that was working for you, you know, and and what whatever, and now I have someone who works for me as a virtual assistant. And it's it's all about we are in co-creation constantly of I ask her for her opinion. Like what are your thoughts of what I should do for coming around the holidays for my business? You know, getting her input and giving her that, you know, not just here, do this, do this, do this, task-oriented, which granted there are tasks that need to be done, but the way in which you communicate about it, the way in which you give the love and the respect to the people. It goes back to that example of the janitor, the custodian. You know, when I was a teacher years ago, prior to teaching at the college, I taught high school speech, English, and theater. And I always was the first one in the building, last one out. And I always would make sure to smile and have conversations with all the custodians. I would always greet with love the secretaries and would pop in and talk to the cooks and give them cards at Christmas or holiday time. And guess what happened? If I had a broken light, mine was the first to get fixed. And guess what happened? If I saw that they had my favorite, you know, cookie or whatever, they made sure and saved me an extra and said, Hey, Tina, by the way, you know, and so it's because of, and and I wasn't doing it for those kinds of things. I was doing it because I saw them as we're in this together. The school runs because we need all the parts to help make it run. It's more than just the teachers, the principals, but it's all of us and the students too, that we need to empower each other for this establishment to be what it's called to be and to be great.

SPEAKER_00 45:52

It's so great. I love that you say we need all of it. Like this is one of the, so I'm in this personal development course. It's uh 11 months long. It's just like, my lord, it's been incredible. And um, just like what I've gotten about like inquiry and like shifting into a space of noticing and and like retiring my should stick so I no longer beat the crap out of myself, which you know is um there's a lot of pennants paid in my life for for for actions that I took or didn't take or whatever. Um and one of the things that we talk about, and one of the things that my leader in that course says is like if you can't be with all of it, as like the what is, what's so, what's happening right now, if you can't, then you're gonna be in a constant argument with life. Wherever you can't be with it, you know, and and this idea that we do, like the the the we need the happiness and the sorrow, the grief, the like all of it, right? Every aspect of life is is necessary. And um I think it would be incredible. Like, what if we lived in a world where uh people's um accomplishments, it wasn't a function of title or position in an organization. It was like this idea that, you know, we need everyone. There's a place, you know, and and having the focus be on what are people's inherent, what's their natural temperament, what are people's inherent skills and abilities, what are people want to do and like to do, instead of having people pursue jobs based on, you know, or or or careers based on how much money they can earn in the social status that that job has. But it's like, and I think I when I think about this topic, I always think about my brother's dad in New Zealand. Grant is an exceptional painter. Like his paintings, like he's his painting of St. Francis of a Sissy, it's like breathtaking. Like it just and most of his life he's worked in construction. And you know, he has his own construction company, he's successful, you know. And I, you know, if he could have had his way, he had a family to support, and you know, on and on, and the story of the starving artist and all of that, whatever. And I think, well, what if what art didn't get created? What art was, you know, and and the art that Grant has produced is beautiful, but I always think, like, what did what did we miss out on? Because this extraordinary artist wasn't empowered, enabled to be able to fulfill on on really um, you know, and kudos to him for being the kind of person who, you know, put his family first. And how many people do that? You know, they take jobs, they pursue careers for some other reason, other than it's their purpose, it's their passion, it's it's it's what they, you know, what they really want to be doing in life. And I just think there's a huge opportunity cost.

SPEAKER_05 48:54

Well, and I love that you said what if, you know, what what if we didn't, you know, do what we're called to do. I'm in act three of my life, and it was my husband that says, you have been called to do this, you have wanted to do this and lead in your own way, create your own culture, create, just create. And so it was this uh big decision. And and I feel like when you were talking, Amber earlier about acknowledging the person within. I I, if you don't mind, I want to just read a couple sentences from Kiersey, because I think at the end everybody just wants to be understood. And he says, you know, if you don't do what I want, please try not to tell me that my want is wrong. Or if my beliefs are different from yours, at least pause before you set out to correct them. Or if my emotion seems less or more intense than yours, given the same circumstances, try not to ask me to feel other than I do. Or if I act or fail to act in the manner of your design for action, please let me be. I do not for the moment, at least ask you to understand me. That will come only when you are willing to give up trying to change me into a copy of you.

SPEAKER_01 50:02

Yeah, and that function takes place because of insecurity or security. And that kind of goes back to that concruency and authenticity. We we fear what we don't understand. And really, that's kind of the underlying point of what's being said there is just because you don't understand me, don't fear me. And just because you fear me, don't work to change me into something that you can comprehend. So now we circle all the way back to language and story and the miracle of this interaction that's taking place between humans and our insecurity and our misunderstandings tell us that we have to label something so that we can comprehend it, which is okay until that label becomes the eternal truth. And it's okay if someone walks up behind us and pulls off the label and relabel something that they understand better, and when we can have that constant, I have a friend that used to call it the exchanging of lights. When we can have that constant exchange, Tina understands it one way, and that's perfectly okay. And I want to learn that better, but my perspective is different because I've lived my own story and I have my own life, and I'm gonna put a different label on it, and Amber's gonna put a different label on it, and we get in trouble when we say, Well, no, Amber's way is the only right way. The hierarchy is the hierarchy, and it can't be debunked or changed, and it has to be the way it is, and that's when we really get ourselves in trouble. But really, those functions are out of insecurity because we're so afraid to potentially entertain an idea that it could be done differently. It could be called something different, it could live and breathe in a different way in time, and that's perfectly okay.

SPEAKER_00 51:52

You know, Mitch, you you you say we get in trouble, but for me, I think like you know, I would language it even stronger. Human beings will kill off 100%, right? And we do like literally, we either kill people off in our like we stop listening to them as the possibility of something in our relationships, in our organizations, right? So we either kill people off in their listening, we kill off trust, you know, to the to the furthest extreme of we actually kill each other over this very you know, unwillingness to to try on a different point of view or a different pre pref pref like perspective. But part of it is is first, people have to know that they can. And this is why these this is why I do what I do, this is why I have the podcast, this is why I have these conversations with people, because so many people don't even know that that they just it's not the truth.

SPEAKER_01 52:48

It's permission, they need that permission.

SPEAKER_00 52:50

Yeah, people don't even know that it's like, oh, hold on a second here. I just have a point of view and a sea of point of views. And there's as, you know, from the world of neurolinguistic programming, there's as many maps of the world as there are human beings. Every day more maps of the world are being created, and no one map is true because it's always being filtered. You can't, my map of the world, my view of perception, my perception of reality cannot be the truth. Because even in this, and this is the beautiful thing about it, if you allow it to be beautiful, even in this conversation with three very aware human beings, our subconscious mind is filtering before we even speak. Right? So, based on body language, based on tone, based on like, and we probably have a very generous listing of each other because we like really like dig each other and we think we're great. And so, like, but even that, yeah, Mitch awesome. You know, even that, like, I'm going to empower anything that comes out of both of your mouths because I think I come from my map of the world, is that Tina and Mitch are great. And anything that comes out of Tina, like I've like literally been almost moved to tears a couple of times in this conversation because I'm just so like, wow, like this is my life. I get to sit down on a Friday morning and be with these incredible human beings. For those of you listening, I record the show Friday morning, so that's why you you hear it Wednesdays. But like where what about the people that whose listening I don't empower or who's speaking I don't empower? Right? The the other. And this is my big like area of exploration right now is this like what causes my truth is what causes this connection. And I think this is so vital in organizations and just for relationships in general, is this othering that we do. I make you the other to me, and then all of a sudden I'm justified in not treating you in ways that are congruent with my values because you're not the same as me. And I this othering isn't just like, you know, it's very obvious in like racism and and areas of inequality, but it it happens with people who are so-called, you know, and I'm quotation marks here, more aware or more enlightened, right? We look at like when I look at the recent um tragedies that have been coming to light in Canada around the residential schools and the discovery of all of these bodies, right, as a First Nations person and someone of First Nations heritage, like the the the outrage that people have had. And I watch the response to the the the representatives of the Catholic and Anglican churches and and how angry people were getting with them. And and I get it, I understand like it's human nature to want to try and blame and and and you know find some way to to reconcile horrors like that. But we try to do it from our modern context back to a time in the past, it doesn't work because even each of us had we been back then, you know, and I don't want to go down that path so much as to say, like, I watched people who are really and and with COVID. You know, I seem seeing this time and time again with COVID, right? The othering that happens of either people who are getting the vaccine or people who aren't, or you know, people support politics. Like this is this othering just happens all the time. And I think for me, this is what's the source of disconnection. This is how we disconnect from each other.

SPEAKER_05 56:20

Well, and I think you, you know, it starts so young though, unfortunately, right? Because what's been interesting is my son's in sixth grade and he's in this really fine space of transitioning out of kid into young man. Um, you know, I even noticed when I was texting today, his he's having some friends come come over and he's like, well, make sure you say hang, not come to play. So word choices are changing as he's maturing. But recently he is noticing because he's not out for football, he's a different person. He's in a different group because the bulk of the young men, young sixth grade boys are out for football. He's really obsessed with golf, playing the trumpet and playing piano. And that's considered otherness. And he's had we've had multiple conversations this week about that. And today he was playing a song by ear. And I said, Oh, that's just I'm so glad you worked through that. And he says, You know, I love my music, mom, and that's going to get me through. And, you know, to have something, right? But I think when you're little, you're like, well, why can't they just accept that I love golf? Why can't we play differently? Why do they, you know, when I play football, they're wanting to knock me down and things like that. And that's not his spirit or his soul, but he wants to play, he wants to be accepted. And it's really happened in this year that that division of the other is doing something different, and different is maybe not necessarily good. But what's really beautiful in contrast to that is we just had parent-teacher conferences and got to be meet with his band teacher. And he he takes piano. He during the pandemic got one-on-ones via Zoom with this wonderful band teacher and exploded his love for music. And of course, that helps him be more advanced. And so he's now teaching the trumpet unit and even was called a leader. And the kids look up to him in that space. So he knows in that space it's okay and it's so cool, but beyond that space, it's it's being different or the other.

SPEAKER_00 58:28

We don't come into the world that way, right? I just wanted to say like kids, we're not born into the world. This is like the this othering, like I'm convinced of it. Like babies are not born into the world with otherness. This is this is a created, you know, um phenomenon in human relationships.

SPEAKER_01 58:49

Well, it's one of those things we're taught without giving our consent, right? Up up until we're, you know, 12, 13, 14 years old, we we can't we can't give consent to what we're taught because we just don't know. And so we're you use the word gifted, and you're exactly right. We're gifted these belief systems that we have no control over. And you know, that that's a whole nother separate talk, maybe about parenting and how valuable and we and even as parents, I mean, all of us I think would admit, you know, my my youngest is now 20 years old, so it's been a very long time since I've had kids at home that were that young. But even even from my first child to my last child, there was a six-year difference, and we learned different parenting, and we learned what we should have done differently. And even looking back, you know, that's why they say for the most part, grand, you know, parents complain because grandparents treat their grandkids so different than they did their kids. Well, it's because they're smarter and they know more, and that's you know, relates back to what you were talking about, that mapping. You know, the other element that you alluded to a little bit that is true is our maps are constantly changing, we're evolving, we're learning, we're we're we're literally rewiring our brains based on cognitive behavior, you know, the old saying uh of the when the neurons fire together, they wire together. And so, because of behavior and experience and growth and learn, we are literally changing those maps, both physically and through thought subconsciously. And so, not only are we dealing with all these other maps of the world, our map is always changing. And that becomes this, you know, that's kind of the story you were telling, in a way, Tina, is that your son's map of the world, perspective, perception, and thought, and critical thinking and neurological thinking, all those pathways are changing. And that's the miracle of humanity. I mean, it's the miracle of our bodies and our functions, is that, you know, I guess the thing I would like to say related to courage is that the miracle is that even though we are gifted certain belief systems, we all come to a point in time that we face the crossroads of am I going to continue down those belief systems, or do I get to change those? Are there some that I would like to keep? Are there some that I want to throw away? What lessons have I learned from those? And we all get to stand at that crossroads and go, okay, I'm going to be different than those circumstances, situations, and belief systems. Or some of them I do want to keep. You know, I told you about my family. I call it cult. We were brought up in a cult. But the crazy thing about my family is it's where I love to love people, serve people, and give to people. And so it's that light and darkness. And Amber, you said we have to learn to live in the complexity of both of those, and we really do, because there is light and darkness, however, we want to define and describe those, and that changes. But we have to learn to be okay with those, and we have to learn that one of my favorite mantras is I am not my circumstance. And when we can learn the power of that, that just because something is happening around me doesn't mean it has to happen within me. And that's where my real power comes from.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:19

Well, and I think, Mitch, to your point, I love I love the uh I'm not my circumstance. You know, during the pandemic, we had to be creative about being creative, and we were with other people. And, you know, I'm I'm curious, you know, as our mapping changes and evolves, you know, I'm in a particularly very rural area. And uh I noticed that I'm just my map is really changing and really evolving, and I'm drawing in new and different unique souls. And so I'm curious what you have to say about that, both of you, in terms of how how our mapping affects what we bring in, not only the people in our lives, the ideas that we have to share, the passions, but also the leadership that we do.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:05

We can only attract what we have capacity for. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:08

Oh, I was just gonna say, I just wanted to note for anyone listening to this, because it could sound fluffy, right? Like we're creating new maps. Like, and and I love it. On the third episode of the show, I talked to the gentleman from Texas, Grant Hill, and when he talks about, he calls them death cycles. So, like, just to want to be really clear, like on the mountain of life, and wherever you are on the mountain, right? With the mountain with no top, as I like to call it, it was created for me that way. Like, there's really nowhere to get to. This is just the journey that we could choose to be on as human beings, a journey of evolving and transforming and and looking at what's next, right? It's not, it can be really confronting.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:47

It's never linear. It's never linear.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:49

It's never linear, and it can be so confronting when you start to look at, and you know, not just confronting for you. This is one of the things I've had to deal with as a like I've gotten to deal with as a parent, is to be responsible for like I choose to be someone who's aggressively on the court in my own life, putting myself into situations where I get to expand and grow. And that's not always pleasant to be around. And so there's an impact on my loved ones from being that way. So I just want to like, we talk about it sometimes, I think, in the work of personal growth and transformation, like it's like fluffy and nice, and you know, and like I mean, I wouldn't, I wouldn't trade it for anything in the world. This is like I'll be I'll be transforming who Amber is and and examining myself as a way of contributing to others and and exploring what's possible for me till the day I die. And it's not a fluffy, it's not always a fluffy experience. Sometimes it's really confronting. Uh, so I just wanna I just wanted to put that in. And then, you know, um, and I I didn't didn't want to go too far without also acknowledging you, Tina, right? So we could have a conversation on parenting, and I think that'd probably be a lot of fun. And I I just like I know that your son's gonna be great, whatever happens, because he's got a parent who's consciously parenting him. You're giving him tools and language to be able to talk these these things out, you're creating safe spaces, and and and you're doing the work over there where you are to deal with whatever there is for you to deal with, so that you're interrupting patterns of behavior from your past with you so that they don't get transferred to him, right? And and so I I just wanted to, you know, one parent to another, you know, acknowledge you for being that kind of parent because I think parents don't have to be perfect, they don't have to give their kids every new toy or every extracurricular activity, or trust me, even if you do all of those things, your kids will still grow up to resent you. I coach them. Um so it's not about that, right? It's about like, are you doing the work where you are to make sure that you're giving your kids a shot to be able to live a created life based on their own. Desires and what they want, not based on what you think their life should look like, because they don't belong. This is my personal belief, they don't belong to us.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:09

Well, I love that. And it's also, I mean, my goal as a parent with my significant other partner, we it's all about teaching him to be resourceful, responsible, and respectful and to advocate for himself. It was really funny, actually. He was invited to a birthday party this weekend. And I asked him, Do you want to go? And he says, Well, I'll be honest, I kind of need a break from all of them. And that's breaking into my time of messing around, where I need my alone creative time. And I thought, wow, you are advocating. I mean, mom's like, you're an only kid. I really want you to go to this party to socialize. It's just a small little group, you're going to be outside. That would be great. But I'm like, okay, I'm glad you know what you want and you're advocating for yourself. But he's teaching me things along the way. And like you say, that with them, Amber not belonging to us, and allowing them to have a voice and to say what they think and feel and to teach them those words and to teach them that skill set, I think is going to make a good shift in terms of where we see leadership in the future.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:15

Well, that's where they learn leadership for the first time, right? Is when we allow them, when we create the safe space for them. You know, I have a friend of mine who talks about like guardrails, like on the highway, right? Like a parent's job is to be the guardrails and give kids lots of space in between the guardrails, and you're making sure that they don't fall off and the car doesn't explode, right? Um yeah. So yeah, I think that's Mitch, you were gonna say something earlier, and I we can't Well Tina was Tina was talking about attracting.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:43

Um yes. And and my response was we we can only attract what we have the capacity to attract. And you know, there is a threshold there that that ties with limiting beliefs, it ties with internal conversation. And what's interesting, tying that to leadership, I I uh uh this to me, you know, some people call it the law of attraction or whatever. I just think it's a universal truth that we we're all magnets walking around when you really even scientifically look at it. Like we're living in this whole electoral field, right? And we're all physically magnetic, and the you, you know, the universe is magnetic, and that ties to spiritual emotional as well, is we're very magnetic. Um, I have a client that was they they've been trying to to kind of take the the next level in growth of their business, and they're they're kind of in a situation where they're deciding, you know, do we do we scale our team back so that we can protect profit and revenue? But they're also a company that's based on um, for instance, they hire women that are in transition from you know, uh either legal issues or just life that has been rough. And so they really pride themselves on hiring females in transition to really empower them and give them a working opportunity. But now they're faced with kind of this moral dilemma, right? That we need to scale our team back, but we also want to be about hiring people and helping develop people. And and my clients have been really struggling. It's like, what, you know, what do I do? I don't, I don't want to fire people, like that's not what we're about either. And no one really on our team deserves to be fired, but we also have to run a business. And there's that whole juggling of, and my response to her a few weeks ago was in my experience, when you gain clarity on the direction you need to go, and you kind of kind of balance your internal compass of who you are, what you're doing, what you want to be about, and you also have clarity about your business plan, that things normally align themselves. So the other day she contacts me, and two people turned in their two-week notices with without. And so, my point to that story is because I've experienced that when I've had teams as well, that when you came to that crossroads, but you were uh had alignment and clarity on where you were headed, what you were doing with your purpose, that a lot of those things work themselves out. Yet in moments that I was struggling and I had internal chaos, that's when I found myself having to usually fire people because A, I hired the wrong ones. It shouldn't have been there in the first place, and this whole gamut of issues, and that really relates to that law of attraction that says you're going to attract what you have, who you have the capacity to attract. And you also attract based on that internal conversation. I'm a loser, I never get things right, nothing ever works out for me. I can't find a good job. Guess what your circle of friends is going to look like? I'm and I hate using these words, but just so people understand, I'm a winner, I'm successful, I'm positive, I have high energy, and I want to, you know, I know I'm gonna have success in life and build up the way I want to. Guess what my circle of friends is gonna look like? Um, I'm now growing internally. I want spiritual growth, I want health, I'm changing my body, I'm investing in myself. Guess what my circle of friends is gonna look like? And it just happens by the universe and that law of attraction that says, I'm going to go here. This is the path I'm going to begin walking. And it's almost like in those movies where someone starts walking the path, maybe they're going out to battle or whatever, and then the village soon follows behind them. Like that's the vision that I often get in my life where it feels like I'm walking a new path. I feel like I'm walking it alone. But because of the work I've done on myself, I soon look behind me and beside me, and there's a crowd of people that are doing the same. And now we're walking together. And it just kind of happens. It's very interesting, very interesting.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:41

Well, and to that point, I had just finished reading a book called Wild by Cheryl Strait, who walked the Pacific uh coastal trail, and every step was painful because her boots were a size too small in clement weather, meeting unique characters, finding herself, and but moving forward, you know, a thousand miles plus. And I think about to your point, Mitch, about this law of attraction of that work that we individually need to do is with sitting with ourselves and asking ourselves, who am I being? What kind of leader am I? Am I embodying the best leader that's aligned with who I am so that I can best you know support the people that are around me, communicate the message that needs to be said, and move forward.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:32

You know, for people who may who be listening to this conversation, and I know for me for a long time I was like, law of attraction manifestation, woo-woo, like I just was not, you know. I mean, what I love what you said, Mitch, about like magnets attracting, like, you know, but it's like my answer to your question is Tina, a hundred percent. It it it can't help not. And and for no other reason for me than the shape of our listening changes. What we can hear changes, what we hear. And I love the story. Bob Proctor shares it. We talked about like when he first started, when he read Think Can Grow Rich for the first time, he was like earning four thousand dollars a year and he was like in a crazy amount of debt, and he he couldn't even imagine how he could possibly uh earn and he had no high school education, like all of those success factors that you're told if you want to be successful, you need a college degree, all of a university degree, all of these things. He had none of that. And he read Thinking and Grow Rich. He just someone gave him the book and he read it and and basically he started listening and hearing things. He's in an elevator and he's hearing people talking about because he's listening for opportunities to make money. And he hears someone saying, you know, you can make money by there's great money to be made in cleaning. And he's like, Well, I don't I'll clean, I don't care about that, and then goes on within a year to create a multi-million dollar cleaning company, right? Like literally the shape of your listening will change how you listen to people, like to Mitch's point, are you listening for the golden people? Are you listening for the garbage? So as you do the more internal work you do, the more you keep leveling yourself up in terms of your awareness, your thinking, your views of the world, the more you keep challenging, it's not even leveling up because that almost makes it sound like linear. Opening up. Yeah, opening up. Opening up, yes. The more you open up your levels of awareness of self in the world and your willingness to to give up. Like so great. When you know, I was talking with someone, this whole this course, this personal development course that I've been in. This idea is like if you say so, one of the common phrases, if you say so, like whatever you say is so. And we were talking about my mom used to, we there's this story in my family that my mom has a look that can drive animals out of the room. And it's beencome this thing, right? And this whole narrative and forming some of the opinion about my mom and her ways of being and acting, right? And then when we got down to it, we were I was talking with one of my friends about it this week. It could have only happened once. And maybe the cat, like it the source of the story is the cat runs into the room. My mom looks at the cat and the cat runs out of the room. And now all of a sudden, no, I don't know. Like I got this story from my brother, it might have happened more than once. It could have only happened once. But now all of a sudden there's a narrative about my mom, and then we make that mean something. Right? So this is just part of the condition of what it is to be a human being. We do this. We're not going to stop doing it, by the way, no matter how aware we become. But we can start to get really responsible for that we're engaging in life that way, and start choosing and getting to choice about creating something new. And you and when you do that as a leader, like it's a whole different conversation.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:03

Well, and it's the daily conversations, the daily stories that we share with each other internally within our organization that creates the external grand narrative of what that organization is about. So if you think about what are your people saying? What are they saying about their beingness within that organization? What are they saying about the others within their team that they work with and how they collaborate and communicate together? What is that story? Because there's layers of daily conversations, daily stories that really do exist to create the grand narrative that is then that story that goes out into the world as to the the level of leadership that this organization is.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:45

Yeah, when you talk about awareness, I I I love that idea because awesome friends don't just magically appear, they already exist. Opportunities don't magically appear, they already exist. Money doesn't magically appear, it already exists. It's like when you buy a new car or you're shopping for a car and you're like, man, I've never seen so many Toyotas around. Now I see them everywhere. There aren't more Toyota rapports, they already exist. But what's happening is that level of awareness is rising. And I like to call it lifting our eyes. You know, it's kind of like it's kind of like through shame and guilt and the struggles and the bloodiness and the goriness of life, our eyes are looking down, and then we get a little bit of courage and they kind of come up a little bit more, and we notice more flowers on the side, you know, by the sidewalk, and then they kind of come up a little bit more and we notice some of the trees, and then our eyes lift a little more, and we see the mountains and we see more of the beauty, and then all of a sudden, you know, our eyes lift so high that we see the stars, and then we become the stars, and then we just become a part of our complete environment, and that's that opening and raising of awareness. That's uh, and Tina, to your point just now, I apply this to you know hiring leaders. The complaint I constantly hear is we can't find people, and it's gotten worse in the pandemic. They're like, we can't find anybody to work. I'm like, wait a second. So there's less human beings that actually want to earn money now than there were like that makes no sense because it's not reality, but their reality is the only reality. And that's a truth that we often have to live with is the reality that I've succumbed to and accepted. And that goes back to that law of attraction and that awareness. I get, I have the opportunity and the honor to reshape my reality as often as I would like. And that is really that kind of that nirvana of awareness, right? That I'm like, I'm not defined by my circumstance, I'm not my circumstance. There's so many people that you know exist in the world, there's so many opportunities, and I can reshape that reality. And that's a really beautiful theme. But we keep going back to courage and permission and vulnerability and congruency, and and kind of to your point earlier, Amber, that takes a lot of bravery and it takes a lot of self-permission to be okay with doing things differently, not just differently comparative to the rest of the people. It's doing things differently than what I've identified with before. Yeah, so good. And that's the most courageous step.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:27

Well, as always, perhaps we end with the Mitch mic drop. Let's see if we're gonna coin that phrase. Mitch awesome, bam. I didn't know exactly how this conversation was gonna go, but you know, I and I did know that it was gonna be awesome because of who the both of you are. So, you know, I just thank you for your partnership for who both of you are for me. I'm so excited for those of you listening. There's gonna be things coming in the future for Mitch Tina and I. We're gonna be working together on a couple of different things. So super excited for that. And I just really want to honor you both for being the kind of human beings that are doing this work with yourselves first and out there leading this kind of work in the world. And just um thank you so much because it takes something. It takes something to be this kind of human being. It doesn't, you know, it's a choice that you make every day to lean in and just so thank you for being here on the show with me this morning and being on this journey of life with me. Oh, thank you, Amber, and thank you, Mitch. Yes, thanks, Tina. Have a great week, everyone.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:27

Thank you so much for joining us for this week's episode. For more information on the show and our extraordinary guests, check out whatwoodamberdo.com.